Todays the day...

grandprixdiary · Post by **grandprixdiary** » Wed May 04, 2005 7:34 pm

NEWS JUST IN !
From Grand Prix com:
FIA asks for BAR exclusion.
The FIA has asked the FIA International Court of Appeal to exclude BAR-Honda from the 2005 Formula 1 World Championship and to fine the team at least $1.3m if the judges conclude that the team was guilty of running underweight at the San Marino Grand Prix at Imola.

Can't say I'm surprised at this..

Rob

Kapel · Post by **Kapel** » Wed May 04, 2005 7:45 pm

It'll be sad if this has to happen

Julian Mayo · Post by **Julian Mayo** » Wed May 04, 2005 7:49 pm

grandprixdiary wrote:NEWS JUST IN !
From Grand Prix com:
FIA asks for BAR exclusion.
The FIA has asked the FIA International Court of Appeal to exclude BAR-Honda from the 2005 Formula 1 World Championship and to fine the team at least $1.3m if the judges conclude that the team was guilty of running underweight at the San Marino Grand Prix at Imola.

Can't say I'm surprised at this..

Rob

The manufacturers have been expecting this, prior to the season even commencing
The FIA is playing it the way of destruction of F1

grandprixdiary · Post by **grandprixdiary** » Wed May 04, 2005 7:51 pm

It has bigger ramifications than you think. If they are booted out then the top teams will be obliged to run three car teams. That will be a sodding disaster for F1. Who wants to see an all Renault or all Ferrari podium every week ??

Rob

PS: Perhaps I'll now get some enquiries for the BAR motorhome I have for sale at GPD !

Julian Mayo · Post by **Julian Mayo** » Wed May 04, 2005 7:56 pm

grandprixdiary wrote:It has bigger ramifications than you think. If they are booted out then the top teams will be obliged to run three car teams. That will be a sodding disaster for F1. Who wants to see an all Renault or all Ferrari podium every week ??

Rob

PS: Perhaps I'll now get some enquiries for the BAR motorhome I have for sale at GPD !

Those were exactly the ramifications I was referring to when I said the destruction of F!

grandprixdiary · Post by **grandprixdiary** » Wed May 04, 2005 7:58 pm

All the excitement is too much for me - I'm off to the pub for an hour or so, hoping that when I come back BAR have managed to get themselves out of this mess...

Rob

Ed · Post by Ed » Thu May 05, 2005 12:16 am

grandprixdiary wrote:By the way, the FIA's own people didn't clear them, the track stewards (an entirely separate and independent body did) but the FIA and their technical delegate did not agree, hence the appeal. The track stewards often screw things up, they are a strange bunch of part timers who change almost entirely from race to race. Remember the British Grand Prix cock up when Schuey 'won' in the pitlane. Well the steward who made all the errors that day was a cinema owner (I think he was called Nasir Hoosein), how on earth did he get the job ? Quite why the FIA don't have a permanent team of stewards made up of ex-drivers and technical directors (as suggested by David Coulthard years ago) who go to every race is beyond me. We wouldn't have this sort of problem if they adopted that measure and employed professional stewards rather than the guys they have now...

Rob, two of the Stewards are nominated by the FIA and one by the National Sporting Authority

Also the FIA Technical delegate is responsible for scrutineering. The result would not have been confirmed had the FIA Technical delegate not agreed with the findings.

For reference:
From the FIA Sporting Regulations:

FIA DELEGATES
33) For each Event the FIA will nominate the following delegates:
- safety delegate ;
- medical delegate ;
- technical delegate ;
- press delegate.
and may nominate :
- a representative of the President of the FIA ;
- an observer ;
- a stewards advisor ;
- a safety car driver ;
- a medical car driver.
34) The role of the FIA delegates is to help the officials of the Event in their duties, to see within their fields of
competence that all the regulations governing the Championship are respected, to make any comments
they judge necessary and to draw up any necessary reports concerning the Event.
35) The technical delegate nominated by the FIA will be responsible for scrutineering and will have full
authority over the national scrutineers.
OFFICIALS
36) The following officials will be nominated by the FIA :
- Two stewards, one of whom will be nominated chairman, from among holders of the FIA Super
Licence of nationality different to that of the organiser ;
- A race director ;
- A permanent starter.37) The following officials will be nominated by the ASN from among holders of an FIA Super Licence, and
their names sent to the FIA at the same time as the application to organise the Event :
- One steward from among the ASNs nationals.
- The clerk of the course.

grandprixdiary · Post by **grandprixdiary** » Thu May 05, 2005 12:38 am

But what I am getting at is, that it is surely better to have professional stewards, made up of ex-drivers / tech directors - a sort of 'poacher turned gamekeeper' scenario ?

Rob

PS: Wow - I can still spell 'scenario' after two hours in the pub...!

Ed · Post by Ed » Thu May 05, 2005 12:54 am

The FIA nominate two and the National Sporting Authority nominate one. That is a good balance. You don't need permament stewards as they could become corrupt or teams could try to influence them.
Of course there are cases of things going wrong. That will happen regardless. Those errors are far and few.
And this current appeal process may be another one of those cases where even the FIA's Technical delegate may have made a mistake by approving the result. Hopefully we'll know more tomorrow!

grandprixdiary · Post by **grandprixdiary** » Thu May 05, 2005 1:00 am

I think we'll have to agree to disagree, I feel F1 needs permanent stewards, at the moment its all a bit too amateur for such a world class sport.

Rob

F1greyhound · Post by **F1greyhound** » Thu May 05, 2005 1:51 am

I wonder how just one of the two BARs could have been against the regulations? Was Takus car not weighed?

I would also be cautious before accusing BAR of intentional cheating even if the underweight was caused by the specs of their fuel tank. If this technique is definitely illegal, a severe penalty is on the cards.

But excluded from the 2005 WC? A very bad decision this would be from many points of view. The image of the sport wasnt harmed a bit through BARs fault. But it would be from an overreaction by the FIA. Hope they have brains.....

In 98 MCLAREN wasnt excluded after the first (2?) GP because of their brakes, and they had gained quite a few points by then. FERRARI was not excluded after their wing issue some years back(stewards decision was ok then). MINARDI could even start this year with a car along the old regulations. 2 years ago the MICHELIN teams were not excluded even if the tyre was proven to be illegal.............

BAR must stay, COME ON!!

sgd · Post by **sgd** » Thu May 05, 2005 3:13 am

F1greyhound wrote:But excluded from the 2005 WC? A very bad decision this would be from many points of view. The image of the sport wasnt harmed a bit through BARs fault. But it would be from an overreaction by the FIA. Hope they have brains.....

In 98 MCLAREN wasnt excluded after the first (2?) GP because of their brakes, and they had gained quite a few points by then. FERRARI was not excluded after their wing issue some years back(stewards decision was ok then). MINARDI could even start this year with a car along the old regulations. 2 years ago the MICHELIN teams were not excluded even if the tyre was proven to be illegal.............

BAR must stay, COME ON!!

I'm quite agree with you!!
FIA's overacting here...
about his brains... you know it's only red-brains... no gray matter there...

grandprixdiary · Post by **grandprixdiary** » Thu May 05, 2005 4:14 am

Just heard Gary Anderson on the radio, who thought that while BAR had stretched the rules a bit, that a ban for the season was unlikely. If (and I use the word IF carefully again) BAR are guilty as charged, then they will lose the points gained at Imola, pay the FIA a decent wedge and will possibly miss Spain.

We'll find out tomorrow..

Rob

Kapel · Post by **Kapel** » Thu May 05, 2005 3:01 pm

Hey guys, TODAY is the DAY!!!!

All are excitment and doubts would unveil in a few hours.
Hope FIA & BAR reach a settlement

, even IF BAR cars are found do be illegal.
I'm not a fan of JB or BAR but looking at the current scenario in championship, we need JB & BAR to fill in with their podium finishes to make this year even more exciting!

JayVee · Post by **JayVee** » Thu May 05, 2005 4:12 pm

grandprixdiary wrote:I find you hard to understand. All I did was say that todays the day for BAR, it could be an ordinary day or it could be the end for them. I further added that if they cheated then they were out. I made sure to use the word IF in my post but you seem to be unaware of this. Quite how you can take offence at this is beyond me, I am only reporting the facts as they are. If you take the time to read articles from sites like Autosport, Pitpass, Grand Prix then you'll see they say exactly the same thing - are you getting so irate with them too ? Nobody wants BAR excluded but IF (please note use of the word IF) they knowingly ran underweight then they deserve to be kicked out. Simple.

I don't think you need to understand me

You interpreted what I said as No Big Deal and I never said that cheating is No Big Deal

I visit many sites and read what they have. Most of it is trash. Even F1 Racing is getting so close to trash that I've decided not to renew my subscription to it anymore (after more than 5 years)

There is an interesting article on Grand Prix.com that describes the proceedings of the appeal. It doesn't look like BAR have broken any rules. They interpreted a vague rule their own way and they didn't hide anything.

grandprixdiary wrote:By the way, the FIA's own people didn't clear them, the track stewards (an entirely separate and independent body did) but the FIA and their technical delegate did not agree, hence the appeal.

Where and how did you come up with this bit of information ?
Others read what is out there too Rob, the FIA Technical delegate is the one who makes the results of the race official and he did. And so obviously he agreed with the stewards (2 of whom are FIA nominated) You can go to the FIA website and Jenson Button is STILL 3rd in San Marino. You can also read the scrutineering report and who signs the report.