Who decides who is more talented than the next guy?

[Snowy]

"win as slowly as possible".

That was also Jackie Stewart's motto. And Michael could never be accused of stressing his car. Didn't he finish every race for about 3 years?

[RE30B#16]

I couldn''t agree more. IMHO, if Schumacher had to deal with Reutemann, Jones, G & J Villeneuve, Prost, Senna, Arnoux, Alboreto, Mansell, Tambay, Lauda, Watson, Laffitte, Berger, Alesi, AND Hakkinen, Hill, Coulthard, Alonso, and Irvine at the same time, he might have won 3 championships max.

Chris

I am not sure what you are talking about. The drivers you have mentioned, some of them are champions, but most are not, and not only that, but did not make that much of an impact in the sport. A champion is always a champion. It is easy to say Schumi would have one only 3, but then Prost should have won 5, Lauda should have won 4, Hill should have won two. Should've, could've, sounds like pub talk...[/quote]



Let me make it clearer for you. Jones, J Villeneuve, Prost, Senna, Mansell, Lauda, Hakkinen, Hill, and Alonso all became world champions, so I guess they had an impact on the sport. No argument there.

As for the rest of the losers I must have mentioned,...

Carlos Reutemann was considered the best driver of his era, and was a constant contender for race wins despite that he didn't win the WC.

Gilles Villeneuve. What can I say? He was simply one of the greatest of all time. Period. Always a tough bastard to beat.

Rene Arnoux. [See Gilles Villeneuve]. He was amazing in the Renault RE30B and even more astonishing in the Ferrari 126C3! If the Ferrari was more reliable in 1983... well, you get the picture!

Michele Alboreto was Michael Schumacher once upon a time! He was the last Italian driver to win regularly in a Ferrari. He nearly beat Prost for the WC in 1985 [See Rene Arnoux].

Patrick Tambay was narrowly beat out by Gilles Villeneuve for the Ferrari seat in 1978! Enzo liked Villeneuve's devil-may-care attitude, even though everyone else in the team prefered Tambay. He, like Patrick Depailler [I don't expect for you to know who he was], could have been the first French WC [I won't get into Cevert, Beltoise, Behra, Jabouille and others]. He replaced Villeneuve at Ferrari after the Canadian's death.

John Watson was probably the best passer in the modern eras of F1. He was never a great qualifier, but would routinely win a race from 21st on the grid. I watched him do just that in Detroit 1982. It was a stunning performance by a terrific driver who was narrowly beat by Keke Rosberg for the WC in 1982. He is an F1 commentator these days.

Jacques Laffitte was nearly unbeatable in the Ligier JS11 in 1979 and looking to run away with the championship that year until the Ferrari and the Williams came good. He, along with Piers Courage, was one of Frank Williams first drivers in Formula 1.

Gerhard Berger has nearly a dozen [12] victories to his credit, driving for Benetton [Toleman/the current Renault team], McLaren and Ferrari. He leads the Toro Rosso team now.

Jean Alesi. Despite his one victory, he is perhaps the only other driver in the past 2 decades that everyone in the sport felt had the promise of Senna or Schumacher. He was very unlucky in terms of scoring race wins, but respected by all [kinda like Chris Amon. Who?!].

David Coulthard has like 10 victories to his credit against the likes of Hill, Schumacher, Hakkinen, Jacques Villeneuve, Raikonnen, and Alonso.

Eddie Irvine was Schumacher first teammate at Ferrari, and actully was better in the car that first year [1999]. He came close to a championship win the year Schumacher broke his leg at the British GP, and probably would have if the team had gotten behind him instead of sleeping until MS came back. An interesting and very opportunistic racer. I found him very easy to root for [or against].

So, backmarker [an appropo name indeed], not only do the WCs make an impact on the sport. As for other remarks you've made like winning drivers not taking care of their cars or tires, nothing could be further from the truth. Yes, they may seem to mow down obstacles, but never at the expense of a clutch, tires or an engine. In fact, in the cases of Nelson Piquet, Alain Prost, Patrick Tambay and Michele Alboreto, sometimes their mechanics would get confused and think parts that came off a winning car were new and unused!

I hope this has been helpful.

Chris

[RE30B#16]

I couldn''t agree more. IMHO, if Schumacher had to deal with Reutemann, Jones, G & J Villeneuve, Prost, Senna, Arnoux, Alboreto, Mansell, Tambay, Lauda, Watson, Laffitte, Berger, Alesi, AND Hakkinen, Hill, Coulthard, Alonso, and Irvine at the same time, he might have won 3 championships max.

Chris

I am not sure what you are talking about. The drivers you have mentioned, some of them are champions, but most are not, and not only that, but did not make that much of an impact in the sport. A champion is always a champion. It is easy to say Schumi would have one only 3, but then Prost should have won 5, Lauda should have won 4, Hill should have won two. Should've, could've, sounds like pub talk...[/quote]



Let me make it clearer for you. Jones, J Villeneuve, Prost, Senna, Mansell, Lauda, Hakkinen, Hill, and Alonso all became world champions, so I guess they had an impact on the sport. No argument there.

As for the rest of the losers I must have mentioned,...

Carlos Reutemann was considered the best driver of his era, and was a constant contender for race wins despite that he didn't win the WC.

Gilles Villeneuve. What can I say? He was simply one of the greatest of all time. Period. Always a tough bastard to beat.

Rene Arnoux. [See Gilles Villeneuve]. He was amazing in the Renault RE30B and even more astonishing in the Ferrari 126C3! If the Ferrari was more reliable in 1983... well, you get the picture!

Michele Alboreto was Michael Schumacher once upon a time! He was the last Italian driver to win regularly in a Ferrari. He nearly beat Prost for the WC in 1985 [See Rene Arnoux].

Patrick Tambay was narrowly beat out by Gilles Villeneuve for the Ferrari seat in 1978! Enzo liked Villeneuve's devil-may-care attitude, even though everyone else in the team prefered Tambay. He, like Patrick Depailler [I don't expect for you to know who he was], could have been the first French WC [I won't get into Cevert, Beltoise, Behra, Jabouille and others]. He replaced Villeneuve at Ferrari after the Canadian's death.

John Watson was probably the best passer in the modern eras of F1. He was never a great qualifier, but would routinely win a race from 21st on the grid. I watched him do just that in Detroit 1982. It was a stunning performance by a terrific driver who was narrowly beat by Keke Rosberg for the WC in 1982. He is an F1 commentator these days.

Jacques Laffitte was nearly unbeatable in the Ligier JS11 in 1979 and looking to run away with the championship that year until the Ferrari and the Williams came good. He, along with Piers Courage, was one of Frank Williams first drivers in Formula 1.

Gerhard Berger has nearly a dozen [12] victories to his credit, driving for Benetton [Toleman/the current Renault team], McLaren and Ferrari. He leads the Toro Rosso team now.

Jean Alesi. Despite his one victory, he is perhaps the only other driver in the past 2 decades that everyone in the sport felt had the promise of Senna or Schumacher. He was very unlucky in terms of scoring race wins, but respected by all [kinda like Chris Amon. Who?!].

David Coulthard has like 10 victories to his credit against the likes of Hill, Schumacher, Hakkinen, Jacques Villeneuve, Raikonnen, and Alonso.

Eddie Irvine was Schumacher first teammate at Ferrari, and actully was better in the car that first year [1999]. He came close to a championship win the year Schumacher broke his leg at the British GP, and probably would have if the team had gotten behind him instead of sleeping until MS came back. An interesting and very opportunistic racer. I found him very easy to root for [or against].

So, backmarker [an appropo name indeed], not only do the WCs make an impact on the sport. As for other remarks you've made like winning drivers not taking care of their cars or tires, nothing could be further from the truth. Yes, they may seem to mow down obstacles, but never at the expense of a clutch, tires or an engine. In fact, in the cases of Nelson Piquet, Alain Prost, Patrick Tambay and Michele Alboreto, sometimes their mechanics would get confused and think parts that came off a winning car were new and unused!

I hope this has been helpful.

Chris

[RE30B#16]

I couldn''t agree more. IMHO, if Schumacher had to deal with Reutemann, Jones, G & J Villeneuve, Prost, Senna, Arnoux, Alboreto, Mansell, Tambay, Lauda, Watson, Laffitte, Berger, Alesi, AND Hakkinen, Hill, Coulthard, Alonso, and Irvine at the same time, he might have won 3 championships max.

Chris

I am not sure what you are talking about. The drivers you have mentioned, some of them are champions, but most are not, and not only that, but did not make that much of an impact in the sport. A champion is always a champion. It is easy to say Schumi would have one only 3, but then Prost should have won 5, Lauda should have won 4, Hill should have won two. Should've, could've, sounds like pub talk...[/quote]



Let me make it clearer for you. Jones, J Villeneuve, Prost, Senna, Mansell, Lauda, Hakkinen, Hill, and Alonso all became world champions, so I guess they had an impact on the sport. No argument there.

As for the rest of the losers I must have mentioned,...

Carlos Reutemann was considered the best driver of his era, and was a constant contender for race wins despite that he didn't win the WC.

Gilles Villeneuve. What can I say? He was simply one of the greatest of all time. Period. Always a tough bastard to beat.

Rene Arnoux. [See Gilles Villeneuve]. He was amazing in the Renault RE30B and even more astonishing in the Ferrari 126C3! If the Ferrari was more reliable in 1983... well, you get the picture!

Michele Alboreto was Michael Schumacher once upon a time! He was the last Italian driver to win regularly in a Ferrari. He nearly beat Prost for the WC in 1985 [See Rene Arnoux].

Patrick Tambay was narrowly beat out by Gilles Villeneuve for the Ferrari seat in 1978! Enzo liked Villeneuve's devil-may-care attitude, even though everyone else in the team prefered Tambay. He, like Patrick Depailler [I don't expect for you to know who he was], could have been the first French WC [I won't get into Cevert, Beltoise, Behra, Jabouille and others]. He replaced Villeneuve at Ferrari after the Canadian's death.

John Watson was probably the best passer in the modern eras of F1. He was never a great qualifier, but would routinely win a race from 21st on the grid. I watched him do just that in Detroit 1982. It was a stunning performance by a terrific driver who was narrowly beat by Keke Rosberg for the WC in 1982. He is an F1 commentator these days.

Jacques Laffitte was nearly unbeatable in the Ligier JS11 in 1979 and looking to run away with the championship that year until the Ferrari and the Williams came good. He, along with Piers Courage, was one of Frank Williams first drivers in Formula 1.

Gerhard Berger has nearly a dozen [12] victories to his credit, driving for Benetton [Toleman/the current Renault team], McLaren and Ferrari. He leads the Toro Rosso team now.

Jean Alesi. Despite his one victory, he is perhaps the only other driver in the past 2 decades that everyone in the sport felt had the promise of Senna or Schumacher. He was very unlucky in terms of scoring race wins, but respected by all [kinda like Chris Amon. Who?!].

David Coulthard has like 10 victories to his credit against the likes of Hill, Schumacher, Hakkinen, Jacques Villeneuve, Raikonnen, and Alonso.

Eddie Irvine was Schumacher first teammate at Ferrari, and actully was better in the car that first year [1999]. He came close to a championship win the year Schumacher broke his leg at the British GP, and probably would have if the team had gotten behind him instead of sleeping until MS came back. An interesting and very opportunistic racer. I found him very easy to root for [or against].

So, backmarker [an appropo name indeed], not only do the WCs make an impact on the sport. As for other remarks you've made like winning drivers not taking care of their cars or tires, nothing could be further from the truth. Yes, they may seem to mow down obstacles, but never at the expense of a clutch, tires or an engine. In fact, in the cases of Nelson Piquet, Alain Prost, Patrick Tambay and Michele Alboreto, sometimes their mechanics would get confused and think parts that came off a winning car were new and unused!

I hope this has been helpful.

Chris

[RE30B#16]

sorry for the long double post!

[RE30B#16]

This is in all probability a good point, however is it realistic to say that Fisi, Schu jr, Trulli, Rubens, and a host of others are or were really inferior. Perhaps the bar has been raised? But I suspect it has something to do with feeder series and driver funding not producing quality in depth for F1 to thrive on.

Thanks for the support, mate!

Snowy's point is well taken. I believe there is a quality problem amoungst the F1 ranks over the last 8 to 10 years, but other factors have come into play as well. Consider this: David Coulthard has made nearly as much money as Ayrton Senna did in Formula 1. Not to sound like too much of a hater, but he made more in one year than Damon Hill made in his whole 8 year career! Jenson Button is similarly overexposed. Kimi Raikonnen, a virtual unknown factor, came from F3 straight to McLaren and made nearly as much money as they were paying Mika Hakkinen a year before! Montoya came in with as much hype as Jacques Villeneuve, but, despite being IMHO a better driver, has failed to get focused on a WC or even winning consistently. Meanwhile, it has taken Nick Heidfeld how many season to land a decent drive in Formula 1? Olivier Panis should have been in on of the best cars on the grid given his talent as a racer. The same could be said for Nicola Larini or Alex Wurz.

There used to be more teams and more decent cars with which to demonstrate race talent. Now, you can only compete for a win in one of the highest funded car out there, and does anyone driving along side Michael Schumacher truly have a chance to compete for the championship like Ferrari teams of the past [Lauda/Reggazoni; Gilles Villeneuve/Jody Scheckter; Tambay/Arnoux; Prost/Mansell; Berger/Alesi]?

Is it the nature of modern car design? Has the sport become too professional? Has talent become too commodified to the point where drivers are jaded and complacent?

This will be interesting point to debate.

Chris

[GhoGho]

Snowy's point is well taken. I believe there is a quality problem amoungst the F1 ranks over the last 8 to 10 years, but other factors have come into play as well. Consider this: David Coulthard has made nearly as much money as Ayrton Senna did in Formula 1. Not to sound like too much of a hater, but he made more in one year than Damon Hill made in his whole 8 year career! Jenson Button is similarly overexposed. Kimi Raikonnen, a virtual unknown factor, came from F3 straight to McLaren and made nearly as much money as they were paying Mika Hakkinen a year before! Montoya came in with as much hype as Jacques Villeneuve, but, despite being IMHO a better driver, has failed to get focused on a WC or even winning consistently. Meanwhile, it has taken Nick Heidfeld how many season to land a decent drive in Formula 1? Olivier Panis should have been in on of the best cars on the grid given his talent as a racer. The same could be said for Nicola Larini or Alex Wurz.

Chris

Good post
Your point about the drivers pay is probably understated. The top guys make a fortune while everyone else pays to get a drive.
Your name must have a lot to do with it, Cora Shumacher is reported to be getting $600,000.00 to race in the support series to the DTM series in europe! this while in F1 some drivers have to pay for their seats.

What a mixed up world we live in.......

[RE30B#16]

Whilst I agree with a lot of what has been posted the prime example of "great" in my humble opinion, is exemplified by Jack Brabham. A couple of wdc's, a couple of constructors titles, on a miniscule budget. While he was as quick as any of his rivals, his saying was "win as slowly as possible".
A variation, I guess, of "to finish first, first you must finish".
Kimi would do well to take note.

Ah, Sir Jack! Great racer. Smart, cunning, patient, opportunistic. His sons are great drivers as well.

[Julian Mayo]

Whilst I agree with a lot of what has been posted the prime example of "great" in my humble opinion, is exemplified by Jack Brabham. A couple of wdc's, a couple of constructors titles, on a miniscule budget. While he was as quick as any of his rivals, his saying was "win as slowly as possible".
A variation, I guess, of "to finish first, first you must finish".
Kimi would do well to take note.

Ah, Sir Jack! Great racer. Smart, cunning, patient, opportunistic. His sons are great drivers as well.

out here his sons are rated as good drivers