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Redhead wrote:Some spin Warney woudl be proud of from Mclaren.

Here's what the FIA actually said;

There is insufficient evidence that this information was used in such a way as to interfere improperly with the FIA Formula One World Championship

Here's what Mclaren said

McLaren is delighted that the World Motor Sport Council determined that this information was not used

There is an enourmous difference between those two statements, or am I being pedantic.

I can't deny Mclaren the right to make the most of what has probably been a very unpleasant experience for them, but, given that, apparently, very senior Mclaren figures, up to Whitmarsh, were aware of Coghlans possesion of the documents, for a long time (months) before it all came out, and even then only by accident, and that at the very least they did nothing about it, I think they are very, very, lucky.

And just imagine the howls right now if it had been the red team in the dock and had walked away. I would love to see everyone who has accused Ferrari of having the FIA in their pocket apply the same critical(?) thinking to this decision.

I find it hard to imagine that the McLaren administration turning a blind eye all that time. I know I wouldn't have But then we cannot expect anyone high up to come forward and admit something at this junction.

Bundy wrote:

Julian Mayo wrote:But seiously folks..........lets take a moment to boil all the dross away.
A Ferrari employee did something wrong.
A McLaren employee did something wrong.
Neither team benefitted.

We don't know for sure that McLaren didn't benefit. They were caught red-handed with the info. They didn't come forward & admit it.

If you are in possession of stolen property in "The Real World" you get charged & possibly jailed. Why not rob a bank & when you get caught plead not guilty because you haven't spent any of the money, it doesn't make sense!!!

No penalty is absurd....Fine them, reduce the amount of testing they are permitted but DO SOMETHING!!!!

Yeah but on what grounds? Need some solid proof before taking action. Otherwise the F1 scene can get really ugly with everyone blaming someone else if nothing but for kicks.

JayVee wrote:There are still many questions that remain unanswered and there is a lot of mixing between reality and what the media is saying.

If I read the FIA statement is says

The WMSC is satisfied that Vodafone McLaren Mercedes was in possession of confidential Ferrari information and is therefore in breach of article 151c of the International Sporting Code. However, there is insufficient evidence that this information was used in such a way as to interfere improperly with the FIA Formula One World Championship. We therefore impose no penalty

This is very vague (typical FIA). But what is the confidential information ? And who had it ? Coughlan remains a McLaren employee and if he had that infomation it could be said that McLaren was in possession.
The second part is even more difficult to understand, but it can be read that while McLaren (through Coughlan) had the information, it wasn't used by McLaren (as Coughlan kept it in his apartment).

I am not trying to defend McLaren but surely if Coughlan had passed that information to anyone else at McLaren he would have said so. After all he will most certainly be fired from McLaren.
Also if anyone at McLaren knew about this then they should have and would have been penalised. I hope the FIA does release the arguments for and against to see if anyone else at McLaren knew. I wouldn't just beleive a reporter that said Whitmarsh knew.

And I can't agree with the Bank robbery analogy. I'll go by what I've read so far and to me it is clear that only Coughlan had the information.
If anyone else at McLaren knew and didn't uncover it they should go whoever they are.

(I wouldn't be too worried about Alonso The Cute though. He would go to some other team and would still win the Championship - I imagine he takes the points with him )

Other people must have had knowledge of the information if not the documents themselves. Now whether they have used it or not is open for discussion, and chances are we will never find out.

I agree, the bank robbery analogy was a bit far-fetched but then the way the story unfolds we have the makings of a B-movie...

Bundy wrote: The Bank robbery analogy was a bit simplistic but if McLaren had the info in their possession;

"The WMSC is satisfied that Vodafone McLaren Mercedes was in possession of confidential Ferrari information and is therefore in breach of article 151c of the International Sporting Code"

This isn't vague. As stated they have breached the code/broken the rules/done a no no etc etc etc. Why oh Why have they not then been punished?

You've either broken the rules or you haven't. If you haven't then you don't get punished, you can't have broken the rules and then not be punished. It's totally illogical!!!! (Maybe i shouldn't be surprised)

If they honestly didn't use the info, then, as I posted before don't dock points, suspend them etc but you MUST have some form of penalty for a breach of the rules. Especially when it is as serious as this.

A LARGE fine & the immediate termination of employment of ALL those involved should be an absolute minimum!!!

A breach might constitute a necessary condition for a fine but it may not be a sufficient one. So, I guess the action will be little more than a pinch in the cheek and a "now don't you do it again! naughty mclaren!".

No penalty charge in this case is a joke really. MCLAREN were in illegal possession of complete 2007 FERRARI data incl.their race strategy planning.

I cant understand why this is not enough proof? Actually it doesnt matter if they used it or not.

They should have been severely warned and fined, at least financially.

And for the Constructors Championship, who would mind had they been taken away some 20 points?

I would not penalize the drivers though just like I didnt like to see MICHAEL penalized when it was actually BENETTON who were at fault...

F1greyhound wrote:No penalty charge in this case is a joke really. MCLAREN were in illegal possession of complete 2007 FERRARI data incl.their race strategy planning.

I cant understand why this is not enough proof? Actually it doesnt matter if they used it or not.

Shouldn't matter. But apparently it does. I guess the point is that the FIA administration chooses to interpret the rules in a slightly different way. I don't think we'll see a change soon.

F1greyhound wrote:They should have been severely warned and fined, at least financially.

And for the Constructors Championship, who would mind had they been taken away some 20 points?

I would not penalize the drivers though just like I didnt like to see MICHAEL penalized when it was actually BENETTON who were at fault...

If the driver gains an advantage because of an illegal component or condition he will burn as well. Sounds unfair but there is no way to find out how the race would have finished if that particular car was plain vanilla.

time to call the court to order, I think.

The sign say weird thread. Which, in this case, is true. Not that there's anything wrong with the postings; it's the TOPIC that's weird. But not if you remember, mates, that we race in the REAL WORLD, even tho' we yearn for fairness and good sport and all that...

And, in the REAL world, what rules?
You there, in the front row, the one in the Red Bull gear with your hand in the air?
$$$$$$$$$$$$$ (Sorry, my keyboard has no #mark ... or Euro sign either)
But, yes, that's the right answer.

What he have to do here, boys and girls, is: FOLLOW THE MONEY

Now Ferrari (read Fiat) is a big manufacturer. And what they are pleased to call Vodofone McLaren Mercedes is, IN POINT OF ACTUAL FACT:
M-E-R-C-E-D-E-S- - B-E-N-Z of STUTTGART FAME, in other words, AS BIG IF NOT BIGGER than FIAT.

And, while we're on the topic of money, consider Bernie E. He, naturally, is home free again, (just like he was on the big Mushlin Fiasco at Indy). Wow! I wish he'd offer one of those courses on how to screw everyone around you and never, NEVER pay a cent in damages!.

You may have one day, idly wondered what FIA and the World Motor Sport Council (or whatever they call it) are actually FOR? And why Formula One Management is as separate from them as it is from the banks?

For just this sort of "unfortunate event."

Everyone talks a big number in F1 about the value of "integrity" and "sportsmanship." Naturally. Because who would watch a fixed race? But, hey, this is MOTOR RACING, remember?

Even the little V-8 60 midgets I grew up watching on the 1/8 mile dirt track at the county fairgrounds had teams that did EVERYTHING possible, bent every rule (and out right broke plenty) in order to get an ADVANTAGE which would translate into WINNING.

So. What's my point?

While we get this kind of double talk and outright silliness (but in America we're maybe more used to it than you are, being subject to George Bush), behind the scenes somebody's kneecap is getting dislocated somewhere and maybe he's glad he's not trying to swim across the Adriatic in a lead suit. Oh yes. Things are happening friends. Money is moving around and people are listening and following instructions. You can bank on it.

And, after a short time with a few more little misleading and outright crazy crumbs of information, it'll all die down. Fizzle out.

And we can return to "normal," ie. the universe we recognise in which Ferrari (because of their cachet and long history as being the marque that epitomizes F1) will be understood to have an unfair advantage with the rules makers and race marshals. In which there will be the normal complement of lovable underdogs (or midfield runners and back markers) (like E.J. and R.B.R.). And, naturally there will be the teams of unimpeachable rectitude and propriety who wouuld NEVER, never, never stoop to cheating (You can, I am sure supply the names here yourself).

Oh, yes, and don't worry; nobody at WMSC will touch the F1 points or teams this year. The money has spoken. If there had been a video of the council's announcement you would probably have been able to see the wires moving the judges' jaws.

And, after Hungary, and certainly after the Italian G.P. no body but those of us with brains enough to actually post on this list serv and think (THINK!! what a concept!!!) about the sport, will even remember or care what all the "fuss" was about.

No way is F1 going to lose control of their image like the Tour de France chaps.

I suppose what I am saying is than neither of the (named) chaps is going to get hurt or really penalized any more than their teams. And for exactly the same reason: both of them were smart enough, when they set out on this caper, to get themselves some insurance. The kind that goes like this: "If I go down, then this information (tape or video or both) is on the internet in five minutes!"

oh yeah, my friends, there's plenty of proof and evidence -- but we ain't never seein' it. It's out of our tax bracket.

Cheerio! Don't let it get you down. It's just racing and I love it!

Jim Watt

Jim Watt wrote: While we get this kind of double talk and outright silliness (but in America we're maybe more used to it than you are, being subject to George Bush),

He's above and beyond that. No boundaries

I agree with your view. After all has been said and done the storm will pass and we'll be happily watching both McLarens and Ferraris scream down the track without a single point lost

Jim Watt wrote: time to call the court to order, I think.

The sign say weird thread. Which, in this case, is true. Not that there's anything wrong with the postings; it's the TOPIC that's weird. But not if you remember, mates, that we race in the REAL WORLD, even tho' we yearn for fairness and good sport and all that...

And, in the REAL world, what rules?
You there, in the front row, the one in the Red Bull gear with your hand in the air?
$$$$$$$$$$$$$ (Sorry, my keyboard has no #mark ... or Euro sign either)
But, yes, that's the right answer.

What he have to do here, boys and girls, is: FOLLOW THE MONEY

Now Ferrari (read Fiat) is a big manufacturer. And what they are pleased to call Vodofone McLaren Mercedes is, IN POINT OF ACTUAL FACT:
M-E-R-C-E-D-E-S- - B-E-N-Z of STUTTGART FAME, in other words, AS BIG IF NOT BIGGER than FIAT.

And, while we're on the topic of money, consider Bernie E. He, naturally, is home free again, (just like he was on the big Mushlin Fiasco at Indy). Wow! I wish he'd offer one of those courses on how to screw everyone around you and never, NEVER pay a cent in damages!.

You may have one day, idly wondered what FIA and the World Motor Sport Council (or whatever they call it) are actually FOR? And why Formula One Management is as separate from them as it is from the banks?

For just this sort of "unfortunate event."

Everyone talks a big number in F1 about the value of "integrity" and "sportsmanship." Naturally. Because who would watch a fixed race? But, hey, this is MOTOR RACING, remember?

Even the little V-8 60 midgets I grew up watching on the 1/8 mile dirt track at the county fairgrounds had teams that did EVERYTHING possible, bent every rule (and out right broke plenty) in order to get an ADVANTAGE which would translate into WINNING.

So. What's my point?

While we get this kind of double talk and outright silliness (but in America we're maybe more used to it than you are, being subject to George Bush), behind the scenes somebody's kneecap is getting dislocated somewhere and maybe he's glad he's not trying to swim across the Adriatic in a lead suit. Oh yes. Things are happening friends. Money is moving around and people are listening and following instructions. You can bank on it.

And, after a short time with a few more little misleading and outright crazy crumbs of information, it'll all die down. Fizzle out.

And we can return to "normal," ie. the universe we recognise in which Ferrari (because of their cachet and long history as being the marque that epitomizes F1) will be understood to have an unfair advantage with the rules makers and race marshals. In which there will be the normal complement of lovable underdogs (or midfield runners and back markers) (like E.J. and R.B.R.). And, naturally there will be the teams of unimpeachable rectitude and propriety who wouuld NEVER, never, never stoop to cheating (You can, I am sure supply the names here yourself).

Oh, yes, and don't worry; nobody at WMSC will touch the F1 points or teams this year. The money has spoken. If there had been a video of the council's announcement you would probably have been able to see the wires moving the judges' jaws.

And, after Hungary, and certainly after the Italian G.P. no body but those of us with brains enough to actually post on this list serv and think (THINK!! what a concept!!!) about the sport, will even remember or care what all the "fuss" was about.

No way is F1 going to lose control of their image like the Tour de France chaps.

I suppose what I am saying is than neither of the (named) chaps is going to get hurt or really penalized any more than their teams. And for exactly the same reason: both of them were smart enough, when they set out on this caper, to get themselves some insurance. The kind that goes like this: "If I go down, then this information (tape or video or both) is on the internet in five minutes!"

oh yeah, my friends, there's plenty of proof and evidence -- but we ain't never seein' it. It's out of our tax bracket.

Cheerio! Don't let it get you down. It's just racing and I love it!

Jim Watt

Good post, Jim, as usual.
I, being an ex-copper, try to boil all the dross away, get rid of all the "camo", give the accompanying idiots a "If I see you again"......n hit the main villain with everything..(saves on the paperwork )
My perspectve on all of this is that a couple of clots working for the two most successful teams underestimated the Asian percerption of Honour......then the stuff hit the fan..........it ain't over yet.
N the Italian Judges may enquire as to how much sub-judice information hit the public domain from "go to whoa".
The reason that the FIA has done only that which it has done is, imho,is because there is, are more teams involved, and any further investigation would make the "Tour De France " look like the cleanest, most honest, sporting event in the history of mankind.........which I am starting to suspect it might not be

I am really surprised by some of the comments here. Surely you cannot be naive enough to think that before this incident that the sport was clean and completely honest and nobody ever broke the rules or at the very least severly bent them. And where do you draw the line on "possession of data"? When someone leaves one team and moves to another whether it be drivers or designers or whatever they obviously take with them a certain amount of knowledge about the team they have left. I for one would not believe that the knowledge they have about the running of the teams or technical info would not be passed on to the new team. That would be ridiculous.
As Jim Watt has pointed out F1 racing to the powers that be and the teams etc is more about the mighty $ than fairness and good sportsmanship. However if you choose to believe that then that is your perogative.

jacfan wrote:I am really surprised by some of the comments here. Surely you cannot be naive enough to think that before this incident that the sport was clean and completely honest and nobody ever broke the rules or at the very least severly bent them. And where do you draw the line on "possession of data"? When someone leaves one team and moves to another whether it be drivers or designers or whatever they obviously take with them a certain amount of knowledge about the team they have left. I for one would not believe that the knowledge they have about the running of the teams or technical info would not be passed on to the new team. That would be ridiculous.
As Jim Watt has pointed out F1 racing to the powers that be and the teams etc is more about the mighty $ than fairness and good sportsmanship. However if you choose to believe that then that is your perogative.

Its one thing to take the knowledge that YOU have acquired, legally, whilst working for another team, it is entirely different to take/steal, illegally, documentation BELONGING to that team.

I'm not silly enough to think that they are on their own here but they are the only ones who have been caught. Based on the lack of punishment, you have now given every other offender a free ticket to do the same. Provided they can make it difficult enough for anyone to prove they used the info.

In my most humble of opinions, once they have been found to have the documents in their possession McLaren should have to prove catergorically that they did not use the info NOT the other way around. After all they have already been found guilty!

This whole process seems to be as disfunctional as the AFL Tribunal, with logic and common sense thrown out the window so as to get the result that they want.



The fact they are the only ones to have been caught is irrelevant, how do you apply a penalty to the next team that gets caught?
You can't because you've already set a precedent. All teams going forward from now MUST have no penalty applied if the FIA can't conclusively prove the info was used.

For people/teams used to pushing the limits of the rules etc, that limit just got moved further out.....

Bundy wrote:

jacfan wrote:I am really surprised by some of the comments here. Surely you cannot be naive enough to think that before this incident that the sport was clean and completely honest and nobody ever broke the rules or at the very least severly bent them. And where do you draw the line on "possession of data"? When someone leaves one team and moves to another whether it be drivers or designers or whatever they obviously take with them a certain amount of knowledge about the team they have left. I for one would not believe that the knowledge they have about the running of the teams or technical info would not be passed on to the new team. That would be ridiculous.
As Jim Watt has pointed out F1 racing to the powers that be and the teams etc is more about the mighty $ than fairness and good sportsmanship. However if you choose to believe that then that is your perogative.

Its one thing to take the knowledge that YOU have acquired, legally, whilst working for another team, it is entirely different to take/steal, illegally, documentation BELONGING to that team.

I'm not silly enough to think that they are on their own here but they are the only ones who have been caught. Based on the lack of punishment, you have now given every other offender a free ticket to do the same. Provided they can make it difficult enough for anyone to prove they used the info.

In my most humble of opinions, once they have been found to have the documents in their possession McLaren should have to prove catergorically that they did not use the info NOT the other way around. After all they have already been found guilty!

This whole process seems to be as disfunctional as the AFL Tribunal, with logic and common sense thrown out the window so as to get the result that they want.



The fact they are the only ones to have been caught is irrelevant, how do you apply a penalty to the next team that gets caught?
You can't because you've already set a precedent. All teams going forward from now MUST have no penalty applied if the FIA can't conclusively prove the info was used.

For people/teams used to pushing the limits of the rules etc, that limit just got moved further out.....

It appears that I have upset you. For that I am truly sorry however since no one here actually knows whether or not anyone other than Coughlan was in possession of the documents then in my opinion none of us has enough information in our possession to make an accurate call on who was right and who was in the wrong. Obviously (imho) the FIA don't have that information either or McLaren would be facing some sort of penalty. I realise that you know a lot more about racing and F1 than I do but I do have an opinion. Unfortunately opinions are like as*holes ........ everyone has one.

JacFan you could never offend me!!!

Merely elaborating on my earlier opinions on the matter. You just have a different one to me that is all. No offense taken & none is meant from my side either.

Me know more about F1 than you....I doubt that!!!!

Totally agree with Jacfan.

Many seem to have read some inaccurate information about senior management at McLaren other than Coughlan knew about this.

So far I haven't see anything from the FIA, McLaren or even Ferrari showing that McLaren knew anything about this.

I am sure most if not all would like to see a penalty applied to McLaren if they did know about it and did nothing. That has not been proven.

I just wish the FIA release the McLaren reply so we are all clear on this matter. Didn't they do it when they punished Honda a few years back ?

JayVee wrote: Many seem to have read some inaccurate information about senior management at McLaren other than Coughlan knew about this.

So far I haven't see anything from the FIA, McLaren or even Ferrari showing that McLaren knew anything about this.

I don't doubt that Coughlan was the only one who knew about this at McLaren BUT as an employee of McLaren he IS McLaren.