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Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:52 am
by Julian Mayo
And the Gnome is still walking around Silverstone pretending nothing has happened. When asked the outcome of a lengthy meeting with Mad Max, he said, "Speak to Max, is he here?". While I realise he was fobbing off media.
This is a blatant insult to every F1 fan who cares about the sport, and a prime example of what is wrong with the sport under the Rule of Max and Bernie.
Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:36 am
by mlittle
Maksutov wrote:mlittle wrote:So the Rubicon has been crossed...........couple of questions now loom:
(1)Will this new series be able to attract sponsors?
---One of the lessons of the CART/IRL split was that, once the split began in earnest, most every sponsor of note left the sport or left CART for the IRL(or more precisely, the Indy 500)....will sponsors follow FOTA or will they remain with Formula 1 as it currently stands?
(2)Will they be able to get sanctioning for their events?
---When the C/I split occurred, one of the first things CART's directors did was go to both the FIA and ACCUS* and attempt to get them to deny the IRL sanctioning for their events including the 500
*--ACCUS: Automobile Compeition Committee of the United States; one of two representatives from the U.S. to the FIA, the second being AAA, the American Automobile Association
(3)Will this new series be able to attract venues?
---Unless I'm mistaken, for a racing venue to host international grand-prix level racing, they have to be certified(or homologated) by the FIA just as motorcycle venues are certified/homologated by the FIM. I wouldn't put it past Sado-Max and the Dwarf to block FOTA on this one out of spite......
(4)Will fans follow the new series or stay with F1?
---If the CART/IRL split showed us anything it was that when it occurred, some fans stayed with CART/ChampCar through the bitter end, some supported the IRL from the beginning through reunification/ the merger, some supported the Indy 500 separate of the IRL throughout...............
the remainder stopped following the sport over the 12-year period and haven't returned in any great numbers. The big risk of any new series is not just attracting/keeping its' core base of fans but bringing in new fans over time. FOTA, at the very least, must keep its' supporters with them or risk them leaving the sport altogether.
(5)Which teams will follow FOTA and which teams will stay in F1?
---When the C/I split occurred, at first most of the big teams(Penske, Ganassi, Forsythe/Green, etc.) stayed in CART while many of the mid-pack/backmarker teams(Foyt, Hemelgarn, etc.) left for the breakaway series. While the circumstances here don't quite fit the circumstances in AOWR, it would be interesting to see if the two FOTA teams that filed entries for 2010[Williams, Force India] stick to their guns and stay in F1 or withdraw their entries and remain within FOTA?
1) Yes they will follow FOTA. Sponsors are not contracted to Formula 1 , they are contracted to individual teams. For example, look at Virgin blue who are still negotiating with Brawn on a sponsorship deal. Another strong point is when Alonso left Renault - the Spanish sponsors immediately followed the driver. This again repeated when Alonso switched back to Renault. Sponsors will follow the teams because they give them popularity and recognition.
2) If it is under a recognized regulatory and governing body then yes. If FOTA wish to form a new governing body then it could get a bit messy.
3) Again , the same applies as #2. But I expect Bernie and Max to try everything and anything in their power to make it hard for FOTA. This can indeed get messy. Bernie has so much power and im sure he is already making blockade plans now.
4) Fans will follow the new series specially so if it is commercially covered and advertised, with full TV coverage and so on - who on earth wants to watch Manor and wth name teams (apart from USF1). I want to see what Alonso, Webber, Hamilton, Kubica.. etc are gonna do. Additionally, fans have developed an attachment to some teams - Ferrari have an enormous number of fans, so do the McLaren and Renault and individual drivers also hold the same. I personally would have liked to see USF1, but if this split occurs I will not be watching that at all. Because I am not interested in a series that is technically and financially controlled by one man, and specially where for example cars are not being refueled !!?!?! That is the dumbest rule.
5) I personally dont think any existing team will follow FOTA. Because they are too scared - this is why Williams split in the first place, and Force India did the same. They are gone, they belong to Max. What I do expect is existing teams to generate perhaps 3 cars, and divide financial revenues in a fair manner that is beneficial even to the small teams. Maybe Lola will join FOTA! that would be nice...
Good points, Maksutov. To respond............
(1)You are correct about sponsors in that they are not contractually bound to the series(whether its' F1, IRL, V8's, etc.)
but most sponsors look for two things, [a]return on investment(i.e. are we getting our money's worth with our sponsorship, and
ratings(or, how many eyeballs are seeing our logos' on-screen). Don't forget these two; even when a sponsor(or sponsors) follows a driver(as with the sponsors' that followed Alonso from Renault and back) they'll do so if the reward is worth the risk. It also depends on the venues; some sponsors may stick with F1 over FOTA if certain venues remain within F1(or vice versa).
(2)Are you suggesting we have two international sanctioning bodies? As with question #3 watch Sado-Max and the Dwarf try to tie FOTA's hands(figuratively.....) on this one. If they can't get the FIA to sanction their series, not only will their series not be on the FIA's international motorsports calendar, but IIRC the FIA can sanction any driver currently competing in any FIA-sanctioned series that goes over to FOTA and races their(I could be wrong on that one; feel free to correct me on that one.)
(3)At least we agree on this one; watch Sado-Max and the Dwarf do everything in their power to block FOTA on this one.
(4)I simply go back to my experiences following AOWR on this one; some fans will follow F1 simply because it is F1........others will follow FOTA because its' not F1..........others will follow their favorite teams regardless of whether they're in F1 or FOTA.........but others will simply walk away from the sport and not return. It will, in essence, depend on how long the split lasts; the longer it lasts, the more likely the fourth group of fans gets bigger and bigger.
(5)When the CART/IRL split began, most of the "name" teams in the sport stayed in CART but over time, the lure of the IRL(or more precisely, the lure of the Indy 500) overcame their views of the split and, beginning with Ganassi in 2000 and Penske in 2001, they began competing in the 500 and eventually moved full-time from CART to the IRL. If history is any indication, don't be surprised if, after a few years, some of the FOTA don't start looking over at F1 and considering jumping back over.
Who knows what will happen, maksutov?
All I know is this, if this split is anything like the one between CART and the IRL, grand prix racing better merge back in a hurry or it will potentially become a shadow of its' current self. That, my friend, is something none of us who watch the sport want to see, period.
Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:52 am
by Julian Mayo
Mfer, IF there is a split, I think that FIA teams will defect to FOTA (if it is run properly). Force India has started preparing the way already.
The Jewel in the crown for FOTA is Monaco, that is where the money is, where the money goes, and the prime target for sponsors.
The Prince reckons, no Ferrari, you ain't racing on my streets
Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:04 pm
by Tim
I don't think realistically anyone wants to see two series, many would like to see FOTA setup another series because they are fed up with Max and Bernie.
Max is losing a lot of support. The poll results are showing near unanimous support for FOTA and that should start to register with those in the Motor Sport Council. If there is enough support, they should be able to oust him. Problem with the council though is that many of its members may not necessarily vote against him just as we saw after his 'sex' scandal. One would hope that this time it is different as it isn't personal but rather damaging the premiere motorsport series in the world.
As for Bernie, I would hope that FOTA can deliver on their promise to ensure fans can get affordable tickets to Grand Prix events. There is absolutely no justification for a premium Formula 1 Grandstand ticket to cost around 5 times as much as a premium MotoGP ticket.
Enough greed
Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:43 pm
by Maksutov
mlittle wrote:
Good points, Maksutov. To respond............
(1)You are correct about sponsors in that they are not contractually bound to the series(whether its' F1, IRL, V8's, etc.) but most sponsors look for two things, [a]return on investment(i.e. are we getting our money's worth with our sponsorship, and ratings(or, how many eyeballs are seeing our logos' on-screen). Don't forget these two; even when a sponsor(or sponsors) follows a driver(as with the sponsors' that followed Alonso from Renault and back) they'll do so if the reward is worth the risk. It also depends on the venues; some sponsors may stick with F1 over FOTA if certain venues remain within F1(or vice versa).
(2)Are you suggesting we have two international sanctioning bodies? As with question #3 watch Sado-Max and the Dwarf try to tie FOTA's hands(figuratively.....) on this one. If they can't get the FIA to sanction their series, not only will their series not be on the FIA's international motorsports calendar, but IIRC the FIA can sanction any driver currently competing in any FIA-sanctioned series that goes over to FOTA and races their(I could be wrong on that one; feel free to correct me on that one.)
(3)At least we agree on this one; watch Sado-Max and the Dwarf do everything in their power to block FOTA on this one.
(4)I simply go back to my experiences following AOWR on this one; some fans will follow F1 simply because it is F1........others will follow FOTA because its' not F1..........others will follow their favorite teams regardless of whether they're in F1 or FOTA.........but others will simply walk away from the sport and not return. It will, in essence, depend on how long the split lasts; the longer it lasts, the more likely the fourth group of fans gets bigger and bigger.
(5)When the CART/IRL split began, most of the "name" teams in the sport stayed in CART but over time, the lure of the IRL(or more precisely, the lure of the Indy 500) overcame their views of the split and, beginning with Ganassi in 2000 and Penske in 2001, they began competing in the 500 and eventually moved full-time from CART to the IRL. If history is any indication, don't be surprised if, after a few years, some of the FOTA don't start looking over at F1 and considering jumping back over.
Who knows what will happen, maksutov?
All I know is this, if this split is anything like the one between CART and the IRL, grand prix racing better merge back in a hurry or it will potentially become a shadow of its' current self. That, my friend, is something none of us who watch the sport want to see, period.
1) Good point. but Sponsoring is usually considered as an opportunity, and we are talking about Ferrari, Mercedes, Toyota, Renault, BMW... amazing reputation as a popular international car manufacturer. Where these teams go, popularity will follow. I have no doubt that all existing sponsors with major teams will stay... But I am pretty sure that new sponsors will put their hand up for other teams if the old ones don't want to risk it. Businesses always like new ideas and gives them opportunity to advertise themselves, especially when there is something new and popular being formed. Probably one major difference here with what happened in US is the incredible international popularity of the FOTA teams.
2)I guess yes, I am suggesting that whatever FOTA do it would have to be outside of the control of the FIA. If that means having a new international sanctioning body then yes - because the existing FIA has stepped outside of its jurisdiction. The reality is that FIA dont own the world and I dont see them being able to prevent FOTA from forming a new independent championship, especially considering FIA's unrealistic demands. I believe that the new championship must be totally outside of the control of the FIA. And that is why I believe Mosley and gnome have now issued legal action against FOTA.
3) Agreed 
4) I agree it would be difficult for both, but in the beginning I see Bernie and Max losing out massive audience to FOTA's new championship, especially in Italy.
5) This is good point. I really don't know what could happen in the future. Let's hope it does not come to a split, but in that case Max would have to yield and/or be removed. But I dont see what other choice FOTA have at the moment.
If FOTA's new championship is governed properly where all teams are treated well , and they race fastest cars with the most advanced technology in the world, with realistic and stable rules, then I do not see how over time they could lose reputation over Max and Bernie F1. I personally like to look at this current split as start of something great, and realistically it would be just that compared to what has been happening over the past 10 years. But we can only hope for the best - and that would be for old Max Mosley to be removed.
Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:45 pm
by Maksutov
Tim wrote:I don't think realistically anyone wants to see two series, many would like to see FOTA setup another series because they are fed up with Max and Bernie.
Max is losing a lot of support. The poll results are showing near unanimous support for FOTA and that should start to register with those in the Motor Sport Council. If there is enough support, they should be able to oust him. Problem with the council though is that many of its members may not necessarily vote against him just as we saw after his 'sex' scandal. One would hope that this time it is different as it isn't personal but rather damaging the premiere motorsport series in the world.
As for Bernie, I would hope that FOTA can deliver on their promise to ensure fans can get affordable tickets to Grand Prix events. There is absolutely no justification for a premium Formula 1 Grandstand ticket to cost around 5 times as much as a premium MotoGP ticket.
Enough greed
I agree
Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:46 pm
by Julian Mayo
Tim wrote:I don't think realistically anyone wants to see two series, many would like to see FOTA setup another series because they are fed up with Max and Bernie.
Max is losing a lot of support. The poll results are showing near unanimous support for FOTA and that should start to register with those in the Motor Sport Council. If there is enough support, they should be able to oust him. Problem with the council though is that many of its members may not necessarily vote against him just as we saw after his 'sex' scandal. One would hope that this time it is different as it isn't personal but rather damaging the premiere motorsport series in the world.
As for Bernie, I would hope that FOTA can deliver on their promise to ensure fans can get affordable tickets to Grand Prix events. There is absolutely no justification for a premium Formula 1 Grandstand ticket to cost around 5 times as much as a premium MotoGP ticket.
Enough greed
The thing that worries me about the motorsport council vote is Max's little black book.
He has had company on his little sexual escapades, and being a Barrister he will have recorded everything he has ever heard, seen or thought he knew. I think that it was only knowing "where the bodies are buried" that saved his scrawny neck last time.
Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:14 am
by Ed
Bernie Ecclestone is proposing the budget cap be dropped! Is he starting to lean towards FOTA's position ?
More:
Ecclestone proposes budget cap be dropped
Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:13 am
by Maksutov
Bernie will say whatever to the press just to make himself look better. He did the same during Max sex scandal. I hate them both the same. Bernie now sees that FOTA is getting lots of support from everywhere, but he still pretends and treats FOTA as little pupils. FOTA have to stand their ground no matter what. Demand new governance, and increased revenues. Go to court all the way.
FOTA should also continue making plans to split, because Max will play down with his pretenses and try to distract FOTA with promises. He thinks he can win everything in court but one of these days he is gonna lose big time.
Mosley:
"Eventually they will recognize that it can't happen (the split) and it will all come back together," said Mosley.
haha what an egoistic dirtbag. I think this can indeed happen, and Max and Bernie can lose everything as they should. And FOTA will gain everything.
Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:37 am
by mlittle
Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:52 am
by F1greyhound
There have been some very valid points made on here re.what would happen if the series really split.
However, think about it for one second and you will find - it will never happen.
The FIA and F1 would really be nothing, zero, without the traditional teams. The FOTA could split and with quite some effort start attractive series next year, question would be e.g.Monaco(could Monaco stage 2 events, say 1 week apart?). FIA would break down the minute FOTA make such split official. All current contracts, be it with track promoters, TV channels, and major sponsors, are based on having the traditional teams on board. Ok, one team could leave any time - but 8?
Forget about the split, FOTA have all trumps in their hands. Max might fall by the wayside but Bernie wont let the teams go away just like that. He cant.
Now looking forward to yet another exciting GP, good to see the title battle coming to life again...
GO SEBASTIAN!
Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:36 pm
by Tim
I don't think anyone wants a split. But the teams and the fans are fed up with what the FIA and FOM are doing. FOTA is realising their strength and are threating to setup a new series. If sense prevails then for sure there will be an agreement, but even if the split is only a threat at this stage, if things don't move and the 2 parties go further apart, the inevitable will happen and a split will occur.
I also can't see a solution with Max still President of the FIA and FOTA don't trust him and given that this matter is time critical, there is not enough time for the two parties to mend their relationship.
Checkout my latest blog article:
Enough damaging Formula One
Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:10 am
by F1greyhound
For us racing fans this might look like "damage" when in fact F1 is receiving unprecedented publicity. TV channels, newspapers and almost everyone is suddenly talking about F1. Who knows, maybe good old Bernie is simply rubbing his hands and is more behind this little revolution against his "friend" Max than many think....
)
Once more, NO WAY THERE WILL REALLY BE A SPLIT.
Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:07 am
by buttonfan26
do You Guys the Breakaway Series will go ahead?
Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:46 am
by Ed
The latest on the crisis is that Max Mosley now wants to talk and is putting legal action on hold. He now beleives a solution is close.
More:
Mosley drops legal threat and wants FOTA talks
Meanwhile, on the issue of sanctioning the new series, Ross Brawn indicated that the FIA could do that!
More:
Brawn says FIA could run breakaway series
Related:
FOTA's 'New Formula' eyes 17-race calendar