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JayVee wrote:

rah wrote: I would call that as David being a pig headed stubborn driver. And I like it. To say that this was a result of the first race of a year previous is a massive leap of the imagination. McLaren philosophy would be the same as everyone elses on the grid. To win. And to satisfy their sponsors which is the same thing.

Hmmm.... and David in 98 was a softie roll-over flexible driver. Oh what a year makes

Kapel wrote:

Byron Forbes wrote:The question I think you've all missed, is did the radio message to Alonso also go to Fisichella's radio as well?

Probably!!!

JayVee wrote:Gho Gho, good point, the issue of team orders isn't clear and will most likely continue to be because it can't be enforced. Team orders are supposidly banned but so many times we see teams ordering their drivers not to fight after the final stop. Isn't that a team order ? Shouldn't they keep racing until the end of the race ? Had it been 2 drivers from different teams they would!

It appears that the 'acceptable' thing is for drivers not to help their team-mates unless they have no chance of winning the title. That however doesn't appear to apply with Ferrari who have a nominated number 1.

Renault are a fair team, in Canada Fisichella was ahead of Alonso and we saw how Fisichella didn't give way (until his car failed). At that stage Fisichella still had some hope but in Turkey he had no chance of winning the title so he was happy to help Alonso.
Renault provide the radio feed to the broadcaster. BAR do too but we don't get to hear the radio from Ferrari (except at Indy!!) or McLaren (except at the end of the race).

McLaren protesting ? Yeah did anyone notice that in Hungary Montoya let Raikkonen through on the first lap Yes he did

julian mayo wrote:And while she is ripping you to pieces, I can be creating a conspiracy theory elsewhere!!!

JayVee wrote:

rah wrote: I would call that as David being a pig headed stubborn driver. And I like it. To say that this was a result of the first race of a year previous is a massive leap of the imagination. McLaren philosophy would be the same as everyone elses on the grid. To win. And to satisfy their sponsors which is the same thing.

Hmmm.... and David in 98 was a softie roll-over flexible driver. Oh what a year makes

GhoGho wrote:

JayVee wrote:Gho Gho, good point, the issue of team orders isn't clear and will most likely continue to be because it can't be enforced. Team orders are supposidly banned but so many times we see teams ordering their drivers not to fight after the final stop. Isn't that a team order ? Shouldn't they keep racing until the end of the race ? Had it been 2 drivers from different teams they would!

It appears that the 'acceptable' thing is for drivers not to help their team-mates unless they have no chance of winning the title. That however doesn't appear to apply with Ferrari who have a nominated number 1.

Renault are a fair team, in Canada Fisichella was ahead of Alonso and we saw how Fisichella didn't give way (until his car failed). At that stage Fisichella still had some hope but in Turkey he had no chance of winning the title so he was happy to help Alonso.
Renault provide the radio feed to the broadcaster. BAR do too but we don't get to hear the radio from Ferrari (except at Indy!!) or McLaren (except at the end of the race).

McLaren protesting ? Yeah did anyone notice that in Hungary Montoya let Raikkonen through on the first lap Yes he did

Ahh..., Jay Vee, you are like a breath of fresh air! you picked up on the point i was trying to make instantly. Team orders being banned will not stop the teams manipulating the outcome of their drivers positions relative to one another. a badly timed pitstop, a fueling nozzle which doesnt go on or off properly, an extended stop to remove debris from the sidepods, the possiblities are endless, and everyone considers one driver luckier than the other. I agree that Alsonso is probably quicker all round than Fisi. My point is that while Ferrari get labled as cheaters for being very open about their policyof a number one and number two driver,other teams get called "good guys" for letting their drivers race (while subtly manipulating their drivers position) .
Team orders (in the case of ferrari as so many will have it) or tactics (in the case of all other teams) have always been around and will continue to be part of the sport.

rah wrote:

JayVee wrote:

rah wrote: I would call that as David being a pig headed stubborn driver. And I like it. To say that this was a result of the first race of a year previous is a massive leap of the imagination. McLaren philosophy would be the same as everyone elses on the grid. To win. And to satisfy their sponsors which is the same thing.

Hmmm.... and David in 98 was a softie roll-over flexible driver. Oh what a year makes

I am a bit scrambled in the brain after the boat rides lately, but wasn't the result from 98 because of an agreement between the drivers on who got to the first corner first?

lemon_martini2 wrote:Here in UK we got the radio message coming through live.The exact words were...'You are faster than Fisichella,so go ahead and overtake if you can'.

In other words...you're lapping faster than him,so get a move on and pass him-don't spend a lap behind him whilst the guy behind is catching up.

ITV also listened in to other radio links...on a couple of other occasions a similar message was given to other drivers-you are faster than the guy ahead,get a move on and try and pass him-and this was when the driver ahead was in a different team.

JayVee wrote: GhoGho,

Let me clarify that I never called Ferrari cheaters, feel free to check but others have done that before. To me they are prepared to do whatever it takes even if it means going outside the spirit of the rules. That is their philosphy and Austria in the past and their unlimited testing this year are just two examples. Many Formula 1 fans (including myself) don't like Ferrari for this reason.

Tactics by the other teams, well that is just a conspiracy brought by the Ferrari camp to try and convince us that the other teams do the same. Well they don't, why ? simple, let me tell you that a team wouldn't hurt one of their driver's chances for the sake of the other unless the two were comfortably in the lead as if they do they could also lose places to other drivers and hurt their own constructors championship and no team would do that. It is as simple as that.

On Renault, please find me 1 incident were the 2 drivers were way ahead and Fisichella was delayed in the pits by a fuel nozzle or a wing change. You'll find NONE.

GhoGho wrote:

JayVee wrote: GhoGho,

Let me clarify that I never called Ferrari cheaters, feel free to check but others have done that before. To me they are prepared to do whatever it takes even if it means going outside the spirit of the rules. That is their philosphy and Austria in the past and their unlimited testing this year are just two examples. Many Formula 1 fans (including myself) don't like Ferrari for this reason.

Tactics by the other teams, well that is just a conspiracy brought by the Ferrari camp to try and convince us that the other teams do the same. Well they don't, why ? simple, let me tell you that a team wouldn't hurt one of their driver's chances for the sake of the other unless the two were comfortably in the lead as if they do they could also lose places to other drivers and hurt their own constructors championship and no team would do that. It is as simple as that.

On Renault, please find me 1 incident were the 2 drivers were way ahead and Fisichella was delayed in the pits by a fuel nozzle or a wing change. You'll find NONE.

Jay Vee,
i apologize for any offence taken, none was intended.

My point was merely that team orders/tactics/gentlemans agreements have been around forever in mororsport and particularly in F1, this is not going to change.

Anyway today I read "Flavio Briatore has denied that Renault imposed illegal team orders in the Turkish grand prix." so that just makes me feel really bad for even thinking it may just be possible.........