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julian mayo wrote:

JayVee wrote:

julian mayo wrote: Yes it does take skill to overtake in the wet. Webber proved it, by finishing fourth in a much improved pig. (and I quoted Williams AS AN EXAMPLE.)

Webber proved what ? I didn't seem him overtake ? Perhaps he did but Button did more overaking. Does that mean he is more skilled ? (Just asking )[/quote

No you are not. You are displaying covert hostility in an attempt to inflame my ire and indulge yourself in the expected resultant tirade. Sorry to disappoint, but I, like Byron, can just tell he is a better driver than Button will ever hope to be.

Hmmm... I never said either one is better. And I won't be dissapointed if Webber does beat Button, on the contrary I would be happy. But I am being realistic
You can speculate and hope but remember your claims about Webber vs Heidfeld. I see he is only 1 point ahead even though Hiedfeld didn't even compete in 2 races. Hardly convincing
And I don't think many rate Heidfeld highly

JayVee wrote:

julian mayo wrote:

JayVee wrote:
Webber proved what ? I didn't seem him overtake ? Perhaps he did but Button did more overaking. Does that mean he is more skilled ? (Just asking )[/quote

No you are not. You are displaying covert hostility in an attempt to inflame my ire and indulge yourself in the expected resultant tirade. Sorry to disappoint, but I, like Byron, can just tell he is a better driver than Button will ever hope to be.

Hmmm... I never said either one is better. And I won't be dissapointed if Webber does beat Button, on the contrary I would be happy. But I am being realistic
You can speculate and hope but remember your claims about Webber vs Heidfeld. I see he is only 1 point ahead even though Hiedfeld didn't even compete in 2 races. Hardly convincing
And I don't think many rate Heidfeld highly

Well JV, it would seem that a firm by the name of BMW, with enormous pretige at stake, rate him highly enough to employ him. Several motor racing pundits, and scribes have descibed him as vastly underrated.
I do not remember any particular claims about Webber v Nick, I do however seem to remember something about stating that I too believed that Nick was a vastly underrated driver.
I do recall making a statement , tongue in cheek, about Webber being half a second faster than anyone else in, referring to his ability to wrench near impossible performance from the wretched Jaguar chassis.

julian mayo wrote: Well JV, it would seem that a firm by the name of BMW, with enormous pretige at stake, rate him highly enough to employ him. Several motor racing pundits, and scribes have descibed him as vastly underrated.
I do not remember any particular claims about Webber v Nick, I do however seem to remember something about stating that I too believed that Nick was a vastly underrated driver.
I do recall making a statement , tongue in cheek, about Webber being half a second faster than anyone else in, referring to his ability to wrench near impossible performance from the wretched Jaguar chassis.

Interesting after-the-fact comments

BTW: I was referring to your half a second a lap comment
And yes he was impressive in the Jaguar but for some reason lost some of his spark at Williams. Too much expectations perhaps ?
Maybe next year given the lower expectations he'll impress again

JayVee wrote:

julian mayo wrote: Well JV, it would seem that a firm by the name of BMW, with enormous pretige at stake, rate him highly enough to employ him. Several motor racing pundits, and scribes have descibed him as vastly underrated.
I do not remember any particular claims about Webber v Nick, I do however seem to remember something about stating that I too believed that Nick was a vastly underrated driver.
I do recall making a statement , tongue in cheek, about Webber being half a second faster than anyone else in, referring to his ability to wrench near impossible performance from the wretched Jaguar chassis.

Interesting after-the-fact comments

BTW: I was referring to your half a second a lap comment
And yes he was impressive in the Jaguar but for some reason lost some of his spark at Williams. Too much expectations perhaps ?
Maybe next year given the lower expectations he'll impress again

At Williams he has often taken on the task of trying new "bits" in races, while Nick has raced the last race model. As you know Williams have been playing catch-up, and desperately trying to improve "on the fly". To me it speaks volumes for the teams assessment of Marks ability, that it was him of the two, who was entrusted with this task

Ok folks,

lets try to be objective. First of all, what did JENSON really say? I mean untranslated directly provable his own words? From what I have seen in interviews he is a pretty laid back intelligent and decent guy, maybe more so than MARK.

Re.his switch of teams, again, be objective. WILLIAMS brought him into F1, and like KIMI was immediately at the same level as NICK, JENSON was a real match for RALF, actually passing him during the race! in his 3rd or so GP in Interlagos. Now when WILLIAMS wanted JUAN they let JENSON go holding an option on him. In his rather unlucky RENAULT days WILLIAMS made no approach on him but when JENSON started to shine in the BAR they certainly did. Maybe they got the feeling JENSON was actually better than their line-up?
The turnaround of BAR reminded of MICHAELs first year at FERRARI. Maybe JENSON was finally the next Champion? You have to understand WILLIAMS(who want him until today!) and for JENSON the decision to stay at BAR, actually breaking the option of the team that brought him into F1, or to move back to WILLIAMS, a team with arguably still the greater potential at that time. Nevertheless and through all the hassle JENSON did an extremely professional job finishing the season in 3rd place, securing 2nd in the Constructors(together with TAKU).
Now BAR had a really tough first part of this season and you cant describe JENSONs approach anything but loyal and professional. Now he is getting close to last years performances having helped to get the development of the car in the right direction. All this tied him stronger to BAR as he is a fair guy.
WILLIAMS on the other hand are spiralling down having lost BMW as a partner. The option on JENSON certainly included some guarantee of a competitive package. Im not surprised JENSON doesnt get too excited over the change of engine supplier.

To discuss if JENSON or MARK is better makes not too much sense, as the English boy had 10 podiums last year finishing the season on 85 points. MARK is nowhere near these performances and simply still has to prove he is a driver of that calibre.


So when your reporter(whats his name again) states KIMI, FERNANDO and JENSON are the 3 best drivers currently in F1, the fault is not to name these 3 but to leave out MICHAEL who would have to be expected to still beat any of them in the same car.

rah wrote:

JayVee wrote:
Many drivers in F1 have "yet" to do something to impress

Quite right, but not too many a blowing their own trumpet anywhere near as much as JB.

hahaha... hilarious isn't it that Jb forgot his current position at the Driver's Table

F1greyhound wrote:So when your reporter(whats his name again) states KIMI, FERNANDO and JENSON are the 3 best drivers currently in F1, the fault is not to name these 3 but to leave out MICHAEL who would have to be expected to still beat any of them in the same car.

I think that Raikonen has been the best driver in F1 for the last 2 years at least, personally.

F1greyhound wrote:Ok folks,

lets try to be objective. First of all, what did JENSON really say? I mean untranslated directly provable his own words? From what I have seen in interviews he is a pretty laid back intelligent and decent guy, maybe more so than MARK.

Re.his switch of teams, again, be objective. WILLIAMS brought him into F1, and like KIMI was immediately at the same level as NICK, JENSON was a real match for RALF, actually passing him during the race! in his 3rd or so GP in Interlagos. Now when WILLIAMS wanted JUAN they let JENSON go holding an option on him. In his rather unlucky RENAULT days WILLIAMS made no approach on him but when JENSON started to shine in the BAR they certainly did. Maybe they got the feeling JENSON was actually better than their line-up?
The turnaround of BAR reminded of MICHAELs first year at FERRARI. Maybe JENSON was finally the next Champion? You have to understand WILLIAMS(who want him until today!) and for JENSON the decision to stay at BAR, actually breaking the option of the team that brought him into F1, or to move back to WILLIAMS, a team with arguably still the greater potential at that time. Nevertheless and through all the hassle JENSON did an extremely professional job finishing the season in 3rd place, securing 2nd in the Constructors(together with TAKU).
Now BAR had a really tough first part of this season and you cant describe JENSONs approach anything but loyal and professional. Now he is getting close to last years performances having helped to get the development of the car in the right direction. All this tied him stronger to BAR as he is a fair guy.
WILLIAMS on the other hand are spiralling down having lost BMW as a partner. The option on JENSON certainly included some guarantee of a competitive package. Im not surprised JENSON doesnt get too excited over the change of engine supplier.

To discuss if JENSON or MARK is better makes not too much sense, as the English boy had 10 podiums last year finishing the season on 85 points. MARK is nowhere near these performances and simply still has to prove he is a driver of that calibre.


So when your reporter(whats his name again) states KIMI, FERNANDO and JENSON are the 3 best drivers currently in F1, the fault is not to name these 3 but to leave out MICHAEL who would have to be expected to still beat any of them in the same car.

I think I may have seen this somewhere else.

rah wrote:

F1greyhound wrote:Ok folks,

lets try to be objective. First of all, what did JENSON really say? I mean untranslated directly provable his own words? From what I have seen in interviews he is a pretty laid back intelligent and decent guy, maybe more so than MARK.

Re.his switch of teams, again, be objective. WILLIAMS brought him into F1, and like KIMI was immediately at the same level as NICK, JENSON was a real match for RALF, actually passing him during the race! in his 3rd or so GP in Interlagos. Now when WILLIAMS wanted JUAN they let JENSON go holding an option on him. In his rather unlucky RENAULT days WILLIAMS made no approach on him but when JENSON started to shine in the BAR they certainly did. Maybe they got the feeling JENSON was actually better than their line-up?
The turnaround of BAR reminded of MICHAELs first year at FERRARI. Maybe JENSON was finally the next Champion? You have to understand WILLIAMS(who want him until today!) and for JENSON the decision to stay at BAR, actually breaking the option of the team that brought him into F1, or to move back to WILLIAMS, a team with arguably still the greater potential at that time. Nevertheless and through all the hassle JENSON did an extremely professional job finishing the season in 3rd place, securing 2nd in the Constructors(together with TAKU).
Now BAR had a really tough first part of this season and you cant describe JENSONs approach anything but loyal and professional. Now he is getting close to last years performances having helped to get the development of the car in the right direction. All this tied him stronger to BAR as he is a fair guy.
WILLIAMS on the other hand are spiralling down having lost BMW as a partner. The option on JENSON certainly included some guarantee of a competitive package. Im not surprised JENSON doesnt get too excited over the change of engine supplier.

To discuss if JENSON or MARK is better makes not too much sense, as the English boy had 10 podiums last year finishing the season on 85 points. MARK is nowhere near these performances and simply still has to prove he is a driver of that calibre.


So when your reporter(whats his name again) states KIMI, FERNANDO and JENSON are the 3 best drivers currently in F1, the fault is not to name these 3 but to leave out MICHAEL who would have to be expected to still beat any of them in the same car.

I think I may have seen this somewhere else.

It does seem vaguely familiar doesnt it ...

Byron Forbes wrote:

I concur

rah wrote: I think I may have seen this somewhere else.

Someone may be practicing Cut & Paste

julian mayo wrote:

JayVee wrote:

julian mayo wrote: Well JV, it would seem that a firm by the name of BMW, with enormous pretige at stake, rate him highly enough to employ him. Several motor racing pundits, and scribes have descibed him as vastly underrated.
I do not remember any particular claims about Webber v Nick, I do however seem to remember something about stating that I too believed that Nick was a vastly underrated driver.
I do recall making a statement , tongue in cheek, about Webber being half a second faster than anyone else in, referring to his ability to wrench near impossible performance from the wretched Jaguar chassis.

Interesting after-the-fact comments

BTW: I was referring to your half a second a lap comment
And yes he was impressive in the Jaguar but for some reason lost some of his spark at Williams. Too much expectations perhaps ?
Maybe next year given the lower expectations he'll impress again

At Williams he has often taken on the task of trying new "bits" in races, while Nick has raced the last race model. As you know Williams have been playing catch-up, and desperately trying to improve "on the fly". To me it speaks volumes for the teams assessment of Marks ability, that it was him of the two, who was entrusted with this task

Oh so that isn't because he isn't a BMW man
But Webber's poor points tally is more due to his on track adventures than his "developing" car imho
(like how many times did he have to pit on the first lap ?)

ping

There's no doubt about it - Webber has had a pretty ordinary year. But so has Williams - put Michael, Fernando or Kimi in the Williams and I guarantee you they would be in the hunt for not much also. The combination of huge expectations and an ordinary car have made Webber try too hard and be far from relaxed. Not really a bad year to have an off year considering the car wasn't up to the task anyway.

Hopefully it's been a good year for Webber experience wise and in future he will learn to take what the car and circumstances allow, especially early in races. I do sympathise though. Early in the year the Williams had the launch control issues and also Webber seemed to be on the dirty side of the grid and if he lost places early he was spending a lot of time early in races caught behind slower cars. Later, the pressure of this made him try a bit too hard on lap 1, combined with some poor driving (giving up the inside when he owned it) and thus the early exits.

To make it all worse, he has been shown up a bit by Nick, especially at Monaco.

What can be said? - F1 is tough!