United States Grand Prix (Michael Schumacher wins!)

Julian Mayo · Post by **Julian Mayo** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:03 pm

Byron Forbes wrote:
julian mayo wrote:Byron,
moderation will work in your favour. People might even take note of what you post, they don't for mine. I would suggest you don't post any descriptive phrases that might cause offence. My yardstick is never post something I wouldn't say to their faces. And I am not tiny
So now you're questioning my courage? It's interesting to see the way some people react to facts they don't like. I assure you I have no problem with saying things to peoples faces, and then some buddy. If you think there's nothing offensive about implying it's ok to keep imformation for yourself at the expense of the physical well being of others, then you're .... too. If you'd like me to say that to your face then pop around and i'll gladly oblige!

As for you not being tiny, I simply wonder ... [EDITED]

I assume you have difficulty reading, I will make it plain and simple. If you call me ... on this forum because I have a different opinion to you, perhaps you do not belong on this forum. PM your address, I will be in Sydney for a training course on Friday, I would be delighted to drop over. [EDITED]

Byron Forbes · Post by **Byron Forbes** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:08 pm

Well then, while we're in the mood to edit things to our liking, I'll insist that the post that implies I'm a coward be edited. Also, I insist that any post of mine not approved by the moderator be removed completely. I will be represented the way I choose or not at all. Delete the post completely or leave it alone!

Ed · Post by Ed » Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:10 pm

There was no test at Indianapolis. The teams don't go there to test.

I've looked for the source and found this post by K-D

K-D wrote:....

There is a difference from last year to this year, in the implemetation of the 1 tire rule, however the Michelin shod teams send exactly two driver to the Indianapolis test (Massa and Davidson), so Michelin had clearly thought themselves fully updated on the charasteristics of the track

....

I imagine K-D meant the test at Monza between the 1st and 3rd of this month. Ferrari, BAR, Toyota and Sauber were present.

The teams were evaluating tyre options for the Indianapolis race amongst other things. Report page

To avoid a misunduratanding as has clearly happened here, please when posting something as a fact please double check it to make sure it is reads correctly as well.

But I also apologise for not picking it up earlier and making a clarification.

Kapel · Post by **Kapel** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:10 pm

Byron Forbes wrote:
Kapel wrote:Even if bridgestone has info on the resurfaced track why does anyone expect them to share it with a competitor.Does Michelin share their info as to y they have a superior tyre this season???
I guess not

Everyteam has some additional info on a particular track than their competitor,who shares it??? Can i please know??
So then, had Ralph (or any Michelin runner) been killed or seriously injured, and this could have been prevented by Bridgestone making out of the ordinary information available to Michelin in the name of safety, that you'd be ok with that? If so, then you're ... [EDITED]

R U married??

I read somewhere (in this forum)that Massa & Davidson were sent to test the resurfaced track for Michelin.
This is a good point. I noticed that too but I wonder if anything else has been done to the track in the interim. And I wonder why this problem seemingly never surfaced then. Anyway, I look forward to the next week or so to see how Michelin respond to the condemnation they've recieved thus far. I guess if they take it lying down then it really was all their own fault anyway.

Sometimes i wonder...

[/b]

Julian Mayo · Post by **Julian Mayo** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:13 pm

Byron Forbes wrote: Delete the post completely or leave it alone!

We all live by the same rules on this forum.

Byron Forbes · Post by **Byron Forbes** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:21 pm

julian mayo wrote:I assume you have difficulty reading, I will make it plain and simple. If you call me scum on this forum because I have a different opinion to you, perhaps you do not belong on this forum. PM your address, I will be in Sydney for a training course on Friday, I would be delighted to drop over.

Your "opinion" is that you would stand by and watch your mother get run over, rather than warn her, so you could get to the other side of the road before her. Or is that where you draw the line?

PM me as to where your training course is and I'll see you there. My shout at Maccas.

Julian Mayo · Post by **Julian Mayo** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:31 pm

Byron Forbes wrote:
julian mayo wrote:I assume you have difficulty reading, I will make it plain and simple. If you call me scum on this forum because I have a different opinion to you, perhaps you do not belong on this forum. PM your address, I will be in Sydney for a training course on Friday, I would be delighted to drop over.
Your "opinion" is that you would stand by and watch your mother get run over, rather than warn her, so you could get to the other side of the road before her. Or is that where you draw the line?

PM me as to where your training course is and I'll see you there. My shout at Maccas.

My opinion happened to agree with yours. I will try to make it even easier for you.
It is not appropriate to say people are ... because they do not agree with you. That is all.
[EDITED]

Kapel · Post by **Kapel** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:34 pm

Oye,kya chal raha hai ye sab??

Ed · Post by Ed » Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:42 pm

Byron Forbes wrote:Well then, while we're in the mood to edit things to our liking, I'll insist that the post that implies I'm a coward be edited. Also, I insist that any post of mine not approved by the moderator be removed completely. I will be represented the way I choose or not at all. Delete the post completely or leave it alone!

PM sent. As mentioned in the posting guidlines you can alert us to any post you feel is inappropriate. Same applies to any member of the forums. However calling others names isn't acceptable here and won't be tolerated.

Editing or deleting posts is entirely up to us.

Remember everyone, we have this forum for people to exchange their views on Formula 1 and not to have arguments with each other. Please keep that in mind when posting.

We have yet to ban or suspend a single member. Please help us keep it that way.

Julian Mayo · Post by **Julian Mayo** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:43 pm

Kapel wrote:Oye,kya chal raha hai ye sab??

Humble apologies for the bhungi, kappy

Ed · Post by Ed » Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:48 pm

The seven Michelin teams summoned to a hearing of the FIA World Motor Sport Council to be held in Paris on Wednesday, June 29, 2005. Separate thread here

Kapel · Post by **Kapel** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:48 pm

julian mayo wrote:
Kapel wrote:Oye,kya chal raha hai ye sab??
Humble apologies for the bhungi, kappy

Kapel · Post by **Kapel** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:49 pm

Ed wrote:The seven Michelin teams summoned to a hearing of the FIA World Motor Sport Council to be held in Paris on Wednesday, June 29, 2005. Separate thread here

C'mon guys lets hit out at FIA & speculate the outcome

GhoGho · Post by **GhoGho** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:16 pm

Byron Forbes wrote:Some of the people posting in here are so clueless that they're unaware that the track was resurfaced just b4 the Indy 500. The IRL run Firestone tyres exclusively and so Firestone passed all data onto Bridgestone, there sister company. Michelin's tyre problems are a direct result of this - the resurfacing in T13 has made the track drastically different from previous years.

See here - http://newsonf1.net/2005/news/06/jun15br.htm

Hisao Suganuma, Technical Manager, said: ?The Indianapolis formula one circuit is quite unique with its high speed oval section followed by a very low speed infield section. At the end of the main straight, cars reach nearly 350km/hr, making heat durability a key issue at Indianapolis. The infield, however, has a series of tight corners which slow the cars down significantly. The whole track has a relatively smooth surface and therefore needs compounds from the softer end of the scale to be competitive. Sections of the circuit have been resurfaced since last year but have been ?diamond ground? to avoid any change in the nature of the track. This has been confirmed by our colleagues at Bridgestone/Firestone North America who have extensive experience of this circuit having recently completed a successful Indy 500. The high speed sections of the circuit, however, can cause high tyre wear so we shall need to think carefully about wear durability. Good grip and wear balance will also be necessary.?
I have heard that this "diamond ground" process has caused the problem.

For me, it comes down to this -

Did Bridgestone get information from Firestone from the Indy 500 that enabled them to avoid being in the same boat as Michelin. If they did, and they failed to share this priveleged and lucky information with Michelin, then Bridgestone are as guilty as sin, probably legally as well. In this case they have stood back and watched on as the Michelin runners walked into a dangerous situation that they knew they wouldn't be aware of. That would be something like wreckless criminal neglect I'd imagine.

Of course, if there is no truth in the above, then Michelin have simply made fools of themselves. In fact, it would need to be a very odd track condition indeed for Michelin to be anything other than hopeless.

Will we ever know?

Imo, all proposals/suggestions by the FIA were idiotic reguardless.

Byron, I appreciate your concern for the safety of the drivers as I am sure we all do. Re-read the statement from Bidgestone, which you posted, carefully and and you will see that there is no suggestion that the nature of the track had changed. The diamond grinding was to restore the characteristics of the old surface AFTER the resurfacing took place as a completely new surface would have altered the grip levels. This process appeares to have been successful as confirmed by Firestone at the Indy.

Sections of the circuit have been resurfaced since last year but have been ?diamond ground? to avoid any change in the nature of the track. This has been confirmed by our colleagues at Bridgestone/Firestone North America who have extensive experience of this circuit having recently completed a successful Indy 500.

Tire wear in only a couple of laps will not be the cause of tire failure. Any failure, including tire failure will be caused by poor construction, poor materials, or inappropriate design for the application.
Was Ralphs tire failure at Indy last year actually caused by debris? or was the tire also marginal?
One would presume that after last years near disaster Michelin would have done everthing possible to avoid a repeat of that scenario particularly after having suffered two recent tire failures before F1 came to North America.
The FIA had also requested the tire manufactures to ensure a safe product was supplied to the teams in a letter dated 1 June 2005. (http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/ ... letter.pdf)
Bridgestone DID
Michelin DID NOT!

It is illogical to blame the FIA, Bridgestone or the teams, IMO the blame sits squarely with MICHELIN.

Byron Forbes · Post by **Byron Forbes** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:46 am

Kapel wrote:Hey Byron,
I've said this earlier & would like to repeat it for u again.

Even if bridgestone has info on the resurfaced track why does anyone expect them to share it with a competitor.Does Michelin share their info as to y they have a superior tyre this season???
I guess not

Everyteam has some additional info on a particular track than their competitor,who shares it??? Can i please know??

Ok, so let me put it this way since insults, no matter how warranted, are outlawed here.

You are saying that, if you worked for Bridgestone and had knowledge of a dangerous piece of track that you knew Michelin could no way be expected to be aware of, that you would sit back and watch Michelin runner after Michelin runner smack into the walls coming off T13?

If this is true, then you're a scholar and a gentleman in anyone's book and I'm glad to share this planet with you. That's the spirit!