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Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:09 am
by GhoGho
Byron Forbes wrote:
Kapel wrote:Hey Byron,
I've said this earlier & would like to repeat it for u again. :D

Even if bridgestone has info on the resurfaced track why does anyone expect them to share it with a competitor.Does Michelin share their info as to y they have a superior tyre this season??? :shock: :lol: :lol:
I guess not :lol: :lol:

Everyteam has some additional info on a particular track than their competitor,who shares it??? Can i please know?? :twisted:
Ok, so let me put it this way since insults, no matter how warranted, are outlawed here. 8)

You are saying that, if you worked for Bridgestone and had knowledge of a dangerous piece of track that you knew Michelin could no way be expected to be aware of, that you would sit back and watch Michelin runner after Michelin runner smack into the walls coming off T13?

If this is true, then you're a scholar and a gentleman in anyone's book and I'm glad to share this planet with you. That's the spirit! :D
Byron,
A recent quote from Michelin reassuring the french fans:
"It is evident that such an incident could not occur at the 2005 Grand Prix de France. The Nevers - Magny Cours circuit with its unique layout and racing conditions, is well known to Michelin technicians who use it regularly for testing,"

Do you think Michelin shared info from their testing with Bridgestone :?:

Get out the video cameras, crashes.com and Americas funniest are waiting for your submissions :D

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:59 am
by Byron Forbes
GhoGho wrote:Byron,
A recent quote from Michelin reassuring the french fans:
"It is evident that such an incident could not occur at the 2005 Grand Prix de France. The Nevers - Magny Cours circuit with its unique layout and racing conditions, is well known to Michelin technicians who use it regularly for testing,"

Do you think Michelin shared info from their testing with Bridgestone :?:

Get out the video cameras, crashes.com and Americas funniest are waiting for your submissions :D
Yeah, I suppose all the secrets they have about all of Magny's 9 deg banking taken at 150mph+ will be a huge advantage, particularly in keeping them safe and sound. Good point!

F-1 and being defensive

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:59 am
by Cliffc
For clarification, I am an open wheel race fan and watch and attend all types of events. I was going to name my first child Ayrton, so spare the judgement.

I was pumped about the US Grand Prix but once again F-1 showed it's true colors.

The bottom line about my comments is this:

Ralf Schumacher had no diagnosis to keep him from racing after his accident. He had, "A bit of a headache" That was a small crash in IRL terms and he was quick to get out of the car and walk to a car. In fact he stated the team felt the "danger was to great for him to drive". This was said on Saturday. You would never hear that from an American driver. Before you get on your safety pedestal remember that SAFER barriers were developed in the U.S., as was the HANS device, Tire tethering, etc.

Michelin dropped the ball leaving 150,000 fans amazed at F-1's arrogance. Tell me why they didn't send a test driver or two down, while the teams were in Montreal? The Indy 500 had zero tire issues so the new surface was easily adapted to.

When asked why all cars were on the parade one team member said "To give a bit of a show". Spare me, attend the pre-race of the Indy 500. That's a show and most people in attendance had seen that show before.

The bottom line is the biggest problem I see with F-1 is the feeling that no other series comes close. The arrogance has no basis. The series is dominated by people with agendas other than racing. The Manufacturer of The Year determines the winner of the championship before the season. Typically you can watch an entire race and never see a pass for the lead on the track. And now you disgraced the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. I'll watch plenty of open wheel road racing in 2008 when the new series starts and Bernie and Max are gone.

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:31 am
by rah
Well isn't it nice to know that F1 are not the only arrogant people around.

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:25 am
by tullain
Funnily enough, my wife and I found the race more interesting to watch than some of the other processions this year. At least there was plenty more to talk about during the race than the usual X leads Y by 30 seconds. :)

Firstly, despite all the spin from everyone I think judging by the various forums around that most people believe that the fault is clearly Michelin's. They are allowed to bring two tyres to each race, to arrive without a single working option in a multi million dollar global operation is pretty amazing negligence on their parts. The track is in wide use for motor sport, F1 has raced there before and in these days of computer simulations they have extensive ability to model and test data without physically going to a track even. They obviously were super aggresive on compound choices seeking the absolute 10/10ths of performance and this time got caught out. They have been borderline on a few other races this year with tire survivability but have been happy to take the points over the clearly more conservative Bridgetone.

I've seen plenty of races over the years with less than 8 finishers due to mechancial failures or driver errors, that's just the way it is if you want to race at the absolute maximum of mechancial durability. Nobody in those races complained that it was unfair their engine, gearbox, electronics, hydraulics etc. failed. That's just part of racing. This was just more unusual because of the number of people affected by the same part. The closest I can remember is when they had the batch of faulty fuel rigs supplied and a number of teams suffered multiple minute penatlies due to refulling problems. Nobody pulled out of those races, again it was just part of racing.

The biggest dissapointment for me was the level of childish whining by the teams affected and the silliness of some of the potential compromises offered.

1) Build new track sections ? No way in the world FIA was going to enterain teams asking for track redesign on Saturday based on testing because one component of some teams wasn't up to the task of performing well. Where does that end ? hmm.. my aero package isn't working well here so I demand a new corner ?

2) Race for no points ? Talk about a farce, have 14 non-competing cars circulating with 6 racers ? With the 2 race engine rules etc. why would I even seriously run my engine at anything like race pace in a race where I couldn't win.

Bottom line is that the Michelin cars arrived at a F1 with a mechanical package that wasn't capable of the performance required. Sucks to be them but it's not going to be the last time a team gets it wrong and doesn't have a competitive package. That the Michelin teams would rather toss the toys out of the cot and not compete at all shows how little they really value their fans.

The solution was offered, Michelin teams you are going to have to run slower in turn 13 because your chosen race equipment package on this day isn't capable of faster speeds. Because of this you definately are not going to win, but there will be points on offer (7th and 8th.. hey those 3 points could well be the decider at the end of the season, just ask Kimi how many he lost the championship by last time around ). This isn't any different than other cars in different conditions be it the heat in Bahrain or whatever, having to make decisions about car setup to ensure their cars last the distance.

That is the thing that astounds me, there were points on offer at least 3 and potentially more as who knows perhaps a slow McLaren would still be faster than a Minardi and yet they chose not to start, hell all they would have to have done is to do one lap, pit, sit in the pits for 68 laps and then do another lap to have gotten the points. The real question you have to ask is why didn't those teams want the points ?

It is clear that there is way more politics going on here between the manufacturers, Bernie, FIA, etc. and that this was a 'convinient' issue for the teams to take Bernie on (hey did you know that they are in the process of working on the TV rights package for F1 at the moment.. and one debating point is how much the teams get versus Bernie)... The teams clearly were trying to show a unified message that they are more powerful than Bernie and they they will shut down a GP if they don't get their way. Bernie and the FIA clearly are out to show that that isn't the case.

This was just the opening salvo in the lead up to the new Concord Agreement, the new TV rights package, the F1 v. GWPC stoush and all the rest. Both sides clearly believed the other would blink and claimed to be surprised at the end that nobody did.

More importantly it was clear that the Michelin group placed themselves above the good of the sport for all their talk of 'doing it for the fans' as they were offered a chance to race (be it slower or with multiple pit stops) and they could have won championship points (surely better than their we were prepared to race for no points offer).

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:03 pm
by rah
I don't know about watching 6 cars go round and round, but well said.

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:34 pm
by Julian Mayo
rah wrote:I don't know about watching 6 cars go round and round, but well said.

ssshhhhh! don't encourage him. Makes too many common sense statements,AND shares motor racing with his wife. :shock:

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:41 pm
by Byron Forbes
Well, one thing's for sure - everyone is happy to heap all the blame on Michelin.

FIA - Their failure to provide and even insist upon testing at IMS, a resurfaced track with already unusual loadings on tyres for an F1 car. With all their testing limitations and regulations. who are they to be heaping blame on Michelin? :twisted:

Bridgestone - did they have privileged information that they should have shared with Michelin on the grounds of safety? Is the FIA going to explore this - will the legal authorities perhaps?

If you want to heap blame on a single thing here, then it must be the FIA and their hopeless inflexibility with rules that are not even close to covering all bases. They provided no chance to test here, and when that lead to a monumental stuff up, they had no mechanism in place, including an intelligent human, to deal with it.

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:52 pm
by Byron Forbes
tullain wrote:That is the thing that astounds me, there were points on offer at least 3 and potentially more as who knows perhaps a slow McLaren would still be faster than a Minardi and yet they chose not to start, hell all they would have to have done is to do one lap, pit, sit in the pits for 68 laps and then do another lap to have gotten the points. The real question you have to ask is why didn't those teams want the points ?
Well, I think you've answered this question - almost. I doubt the Michelin cars would have been quicker than Jordan and Minardi had they been speed limited. So that leaves them doing a circus act for the sake of 1 or 2 points - maybe! I can definantly see why they wouldn't want to do that.

I'd imagine, also, that that particular part of the track would play a huge role in getting and keeping temperature in the tyres, so slowing there would upset the entire applecart tyre wise.

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:20 pm
by Kapel
Byron Forbes wrote:
Kapel wrote:Hey Byron,
I've said this earlier & would like to repeat it for u again. :D

Even if bridgestone has info on the resurfaced track why does anyone expect them to share it with a competitor.Does Michelin share their info as to y they have a superior tyre this season??? :shock: :lol: :lol:
I guess not :lol: :lol:

Everyteam has some additional info on a particular track than their competitor,who shares it??? Can i please know?? :twisted:
Ok, so let me put it this way since insults, no matter how warranted, are outlawed here. 8)

You are saying that, if you worked for Bridgestone and had knowledge of a dangerous piece of track that you knew Michelin could no way be expected to be aware of, that you would sit back and watch Michelin runner after Michelin runner smack into the walls coming off T13?

If this is true, then you're a scholar and a gentleman in anyone's book and I'm glad to share this planet with you. That's the spirit! :D
Byron,

I think U have received very little information on the resurfaced track.If there were carbon fibres installed on the resurfaced track(T13) then ,yes it was bridgestone obligation to inform Michelin.But,tell me do ppl who make the track deliberatly put carbon fibres or any other dangerous material on the track for tyres to fail,enjoy some crashes,injuries,deaths :shock: :shock: :twisted: :twisted:

There was nothing wrong with the resurfaced T13,it was just resurfaced!!!!
Montreal was resurfaced,Michelin got it rgt there but at Indiapolis wrong.Its plain & simple.
Michelin brought the super performing tyres without durability,which was performing ok on other parts of the track but not on T13 because of the nature of the layout,not because of the resurfaced material!!!!

Sometimes i wonder... :lol:

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:55 pm
by tullain
Not working for a F1 team I have no idea how good their testing and simulation ability is, but I suspect it is pretty damm good. Do teams even have to run physically at a track to test performance , wear etc ? Seems not. There is no shortage of racing at Indy and no shortage of data, not to mention it is hardly the first time F1 has raced on the track either.

I don't think Bridgestone had anything to share. It is common knowledge for anyone involved in motor racing at Indianapolis that the left rear tire at that corner is subject to huge loads. Even if they did know something from their involvement via Firestone in IRL what could they tell Michelin ? Hey be careful as Turn 13 has huge loads ? Both manufacturers use to my knowledge very different design approaches to building F1 tires and very different mixes of chemical and physical grip. Without Michelin telling Bridgestone how they make their tires, how would Bridgestone be in a position to even judge or test to see if the Michelin tire was safe or to advise Michelin on what to change ?

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:07 pm
by Kapel
tullain wrote:Not working for a F1 team I have no idea how good their testing and simulation ability is, but I suspect it is pretty damm good. Do teams even have to run physically at a track to test performance , wear etc ? Seems not. There is no shortage of racing at Indy and no shortage of data, not to mention it is hardly the first time F1 has raced on the track either.

I don't think Bridgestone had anything to share. It is common knowledge for anyone involved in motor racing at Indianapolis that the left rear tire at that corner is subject to huge loads. Even if they did know something from their involvement via Firestone in IRL what could they tell Michelin ? Hey be careful as Turn 13 has huge loads ? Both manufacturers use to my knowledge very different design approaches to building F1 tires and very different mixes of chemical and physical grip. Without Michelin telling Bridgestone how they make their tires, how would Bridgestone be in a position to even judge or test to see if the Michelin tire was safe or to advise Michelin on what to change ?
Perfect!! :wink:
Mr.Byron please read this!!! :wink: :D

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 6:41 pm
by Bundy
Byron Forbes wrote: Sometimes i wonder... :lol:

about what?

Why opposition teams don't let each other know what their strategy, strengths, weaknesses, thoughts, facts are? This isn't a criminal trial, its a world championship motor race. Best vs Best.

These people are all grown ups and meant to be the best in their field. IF you were going to a track that you didn't know don't you think you would err on the side of caution. BUT these people are paid huge sums of money to know every little detail about every inch of track they race. The fact of the matter is Michelin stuffed up big time. They knew the track but tried to push the limit and got found out.

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 6:53 pm
by Julian Mayo
bundy wrote:
Byron Forbes wrote: Sometimes i wonder... :lol:

about what?

Why opposition teams don't let each other know what their strategy, strengths, weaknesses, thoughts, facts are? This isn't a criminal trial, its a world championship motor race. Best vs Best.

These people are all grown ups and meant to be the best in their field. IF you were going to a track that you didn't know don't you think you would err on the side of caution. BUT these people are paid huge sums of money to know every little detail about every inch of track they race. The fact of the matter is Michelin stuffed up big time. They knew the track but tried to push the limit and got found out.



So iffen yer can do that yer must be smart, yeah? SO HOW COME YER FOLLOW THER BLOODY BOMBERS , N YER IS FROM WA

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 6:56 pm
by Kapel
bundy wrote:
Byron Forbes wrote: Sometimes i wonder... :lol:

about what?
Why some ppl needed to be explained what happened in the race & y ppl expects favour in cut throat competition,something like F1.

Sometimes i wonder.... :lol: