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JayVee wrote:

rah wrote:

JayVee wrote:
Hmmm.... and David in 98 was a softie roll-over flexible driver. Oh what a year makes

I am a bit scrambled in the brain after the boat rides lately, but wasn't the result from 98 because of an agreement between the drivers on who got to the first corner first?

Well it is either a gentleman's agreement or a team order. Please verify with Kapel (cause he brought it up) and then decide. It can't be used as a team order if a few posts later it is argued that it isn't

JV I never said it was a team order in the first place. I am not in colaboration with Kapel either on how to prove this to you. I am merely pointing out that 99 and 98 are completely different and do not relate to each other. I am sure the management in 99 was very unimpressed with Davids decision. To say that that one race proves that McLaren do not give team orders is a stretch in my opinion.

I concur

JayVee wrote:

lemon_martini2 wrote:Here in UK we got the radio message coming through live.The exact words were...'You are faster than Fisichella,so go ahead and overtake if you can'.

In other words...you're lapping faster than him,so get a move on and pass him-don't spend a lap behind him whilst the guy behind is catching up.

ITV also listened in to other radio links...on a couple of other occasions a similar message was given to other drivers-you are faster than the guy ahead,get a move on and try and pass him-and this was when the driver ahead was in a different team.

Renault make their radio conversations available to the TV broadcasters, I wonder why doesn't Ferrari provide that ? (Indy was an exception of course but they had no choice then!!, even then there were team orders, and people still defend Ferrari )

Mclaren also dont provide radio conversation.I think its upto the team to decide tht.No rules have been laid down on this yet.
N btw,Ferrari have not been in any position to deliver any orders in this season(not even in Monaco,i can vouch for tht).Some teams dont feel to share it.Jordan & Minardi included.

JayVee,i've never mention in this forum that Ferrari dont give team orders.Every deaf man can see that

All i'm trying to tell u is tht,its not only Ferrari but other teams in the paddock that uses them,but in a more hidden/diplomatic way.

98,the team asked the drivers to do an arrangement between themselves,which Mika & David followed.But it was still a team's decision for a gentleman's agreement of team order!!!

rah wrote:I am sure the management in 99 was very unimpressed with Davids decision. To say that that one race proves that McLaren do not give team orders is a stretch in my opinion.

Sorry but you are implying that McLaren weren't happy. How do you know that ? Any facts ?

rah wrote:To say that that one race proves that McLaren do not give team orders is a stretch in my opinion.

And when did McLaren give team orders ? Once, twice ? Would that be a strech then to claim that McLaren give team orders ?

Kapel wrote: N btw,Ferrari have not been in any position to deliver any orders in this season(not even in Monaco,i can vouch for tht).Some teams dont feel to share it.Jordan & Minardi included.

mmmm...... you surprise me with your defense of Ferrari.

Lets see (gets out the stats books):

This year Michael finished one position ahead of Barrichello 3 times (Monaco, US, Britain).
In Monaco Michael forced his way on the final lap to take a place from Barrichello. (And they are not supposed to race each other after the final stop).
In the USA we heard them on the radio tell their drivers to hold position (now what do you call that Kapel ?) - Barrichello obliged despite Monaco and despite running off the track to avoid Michael.
In Britain, the two were on different strategies and towards the end of the race Barrichello caught Michael yet again they held position (cause they are supposed to race each other only until the final stop)

Perhaps the dumb and deaf don't know the Ferrari way, all these rules apply to Barrichello only. Just another unfair disadvantage Michael has!

Kapel wrote:JayVee,i've never mention in this forum that Ferrari dont give team orders.Every deaf man can see that

All i'm trying to tell u is tht,its not only Ferrari but other teams in the paddock that uses them,but in a more hidden/diplomatic way.

98,the team asked the drivers to do an arrangement between themselves,which Mika & David followed.But it was still a team's decision for a gentleman's agreement of team order!!!

I think we are going round and round.

No one has given an example of a hidden/diplomatic team order.
All the problems Fisichella had this season have affected the team in their constructors championship and none saw a direct swap in position between Alonso and Fisichella.

Towards the end of the season if one of the team-mates aren't fighting for the championship you'd expect the driver who isn't fighting to move out of the way.

JayVee wrote:

rah wrote:I am sure the management in 99 was very unimpressed with Davids decision. To say that that one race proves that McLaren do not give team orders is a stretch in my opinion.

Sorry but you are implying that McLaren weren't happy. How do you know that ? Any facts ?

rah wrote:To say that that one race proves that McLaren do not give team orders is a stretch in my opinion.

And when did McLaren give team orders ? Once, twice ? Would that be a strech then to claim that McLaren give team orders ?

You are of course correct. I have no facts that McLaren would be unhappy about NOT winning the WDC when it was so close. lol.

Every team gives team orders. I don't know how you believe this to be any other way.

I have just sussed it out, guys. KD is alive and well; pms to JV, and she posts for him

julian mayo wrote:I have just sussed it out, guys. KD is alive and well; pms to JV, and she posts for him

Nice one, but I am not sure that you can give someone pms.

rah wrote:

julian mayo wrote:I have just sussed it out, guys. KD is alive and well; pms to JV, and she posts for him

Nice one, but I am not sure that you can give someone pms.

my wife has PMS, i didnt give it to her......

___________________
just an idiot

JayVee wrote:

Kapel wrote: N btw,Ferrari have not been in any position to deliver any orders in this season(not even in Monaco,i can vouch for tht).Some teams dont feel to share it.Jordan & Minardi included.

mmmm...... you surprise me with your defense of Ferrari

.
U may call it defence,for me its simple,Ferrari never denied using team orders,but other teams use it n still deny it!!!

Lets see (gets out the stats books):

This year Michael finished one position ahead of Barrichello 3 times (Monaco, US, Britain).
In Monaco Michael forced his way on the final lap to take a place from Barrichello. (And they are not supposed to race each other after the final stop).
In the USA we heard them on the radio tell their drivers to hold position (now what do you call that Kapel ?) - Barrichello obliged despite Monaco and despite running off the track to avoid Michael.
In Britain, the two were on different strategies and towards the end of the race Barrichello caught Michael yet again they held position (cause they are supposed to race each other only until the final stop)

Perhaps the dumb and deaf don't know the Ferrari way, all these rules apply to Barrichello only. Just another unfair disadvantage Michael has!

I would say its team orders!!!!

JayVee wrote:

Kapel wrote:JayVee,i've never mention in this forum that Ferrari dont give team orders.Every deaf man can see that

All i'm trying to tell u is tht,its not only Ferrari but other teams in the paddock that uses them,but in a more hidden/diplomatic way.

98,the team asked the drivers to do an arrangement between themselves,which Mika & David followed.But it was still a team's decision for a gentleman's agreement of team order!!!

I think we are going round and round.

No one has given an example of a hidden/diplomatic team order.

The radio mesg we heard in turkey was a diplomatic way (Diplomatic saying:Conveying things to be conveyed without having to say it directly to sound offending/rude to others )

All the problems Fisichella had this season have affected the team in their constructors championship and none saw a direct swap in position between Alonso and Fisichella.

Towards the end of the season if one of the team-mates aren't fighting for the championship you'd expect the driver who isn't fighting to move out of the way

.

Y????

JayVee,i would say you go into defending a team(mayb ur fav or not,but any non-ferrari team)

Even if a driver doesnt have a chance to win a championship,would he like to have race wins against his name????I'm suprised by the way u want to believe that a driver is happy giving away his race win for his teammate to win championship!!!

After Austria'02,as team orders were banned,all team running in for championship uses different way to make sure one of their drivers win it.Ferrari does is more blatantly,which have given them a bad name in these years,but c'mon everyone does it.Thats my point!!!!

JayVee,i've no issues in Alonso becoming the youngest champion(records are meant to be broken)A champion has to lose to make way for another champion only then would the sport keep up the interest.
With Michael losing this year,i'm sure the tv rating & attendance at the race venue have increased.

Kapel wrote:

JayVee wrote:

Kapel wrote: N btw,Ferrari have not been in any position to deliver any orders in this season(not even in Monaco,i can vouch for tht).Some teams dont feel to share it.Jordan & Minardi included.

mmmm...... you surprise me with your defense of Ferrari

.
U may call it defence,for me its simple,Ferrari never denied using team orders,but other teams use it n still deny it!!!

Lets see (gets out the stats books):

This year Michael finished one position ahead of Barrichello 3 times (Monaco, US, Britain).
In Monaco Michael forced his way on the final lap to take a place from Barrichello. (And they are not supposed to race each other after the final stop).
In the USA we heard them on the radio tell their drivers to hold position (now what do you call that Kapel ?) - Barrichello obliged despite Monaco and despite running off the track to avoid Michael.
In Britain, the two were on different strategies and towards the end of the race Barrichello caught Michael yet again they held position (cause they are supposed to race each other only until the final stop)

Perhaps the dumb and deaf don't know the Ferrari way, all these rules apply to Barrichello only. Just another unfair disadvantage Michael has!

I would say its team orders!!!!

But earlier you say "have not been in any position"