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JayVee wrote:

Byron Forbes wrote:

JayVee wrote:He does need that first win pretty badly! At least he can claim the car has never won in the past. An excuse others can't make

Yeah, that Williams was as good this year as in any other year!

You don't have to go too far back

Montoya won in last year's Williams which wasn't better than this year! Also Raikkonen won last year in a bad McLaren.
Button should have won last year as he was in the second best car but didn't and that shows that he isn't a top class driver.

Good luck selling the idea that an offseason with reg changes is "not going back too far" in F1 time!

The only way anyone would have won in the Williams this year is if it swapped tyre manufacturers with Ferrari and stole that Indy GP. Renault and McLaren have dominated this year - everyone else is in division 2.

JayVee wrote:Not too sure about that, of all the "good" drivers in Formula 1 I think only Button and Webber have not won a race yet!

I think we agree that the longer it takes for a driver to win in Formula 1 the less chance they have to become Champion. I'd say Button is about there while Webber isn't too far.

Q. How many years has Button been with a top team?
A. 6 years - Williams 2000, Benetton/Renault 2001 & 2002, BAR 2003-2005
Q. How many years has Webber been with a top team?
A. 1 year - Williams 2004

JV, i think you are clutching at straws saying Mark's not far behind Button!!!

You obviously don't like MW and that is fine with me. I'm not a big fan of Alonso (I rate his driving just not him). For me, I like Kimi & Mark's attitude of pushing the car to its absolute limit for an entire race rather than protecting a series lead. Its the same reason I was such a huge fan of Senna's.

I will however happily admit Mark has made some errors this year. Some I put down to a lack of experience driving at the front, others to him trying too hard. None the less they are all HIS errors. He has also had a sh*tload of bad luck and some of that would more than likely have been avoided if he had had more experience driving at the front.

One last thing, comparing the 2004 Williams to the 2005 Williams is like comparing a VL Holden Commodore to a Series II VZ Commodore. Sure they have the same name but I doubt you would find any other similarity.

JayVee wrote:

Julian Mayo wrote:

JayVee wrote:He does need that first win pretty badly! At least he can claim the car has never won in the past. An excuse others can't make

Every other driver except Kimi, JPM, Fisi and Alonso can make that excuse.

Not too sure about that, of all the "good" drivers in Formula 1 I think only Button and Webber have not won a race yet!

I think we agree that the longer it takes for a driver to win in Formula 1 the less chance they have to become Champion. I'd say Button is about there while Webber isn't too far.

It would be interesting to know which World Champ took the longest to get their first win. If I get some time I'll look for that info

No world champion took one hundred races to post his first victory, JV, I leave it to you delve further into the quagmire of stats to find a definitive answer

By comparison one J.Stewart competed in 92 races.
had 27 wins
won the title 3 times.

Stewart competed in 92 races.
had 27 wins
won the title 3 times. [/quote]

I may have missed it but How many GPs has Webber run in?
Must be over 50

Lloyd wrote:Stewart competed in 92 races.
had 27 wins
won the title 3 times.

I may have missed it but How many GPs has Webber run in?
Must be over 50 [/quote]

Unlike Button, Webber does not go around saying he is a better driver than others

I love these forums
Just like barracking for your own footy team, one eyed & biased. Most people only see what they want to see.
Me im perfect.

Lloyd wrote:I love these forums
Just like barracking for your own footy team, one eyed & biased. Most people only see what they want to see.
Me im perfect.

I may only have one eye, but that is because I am dressed like a pirate.

Lloyd wrote:I love these forums
Just like barracking for your own footy team, one eyed & biased. Most people only see what they want to see.
Me im perfect.

No no no - I'm very sorry, but since you're not a clone of me that simply cannot be (poet, didn't knowit).

rah wrote:

Lloyd wrote:I love these forums
Just like barracking for your own footy team, one eyed & biased. Most people only see what they want to see.
Me im perfect.

I may only have one eye, but that is because I am dressed like a pirate.

Too much information, Rah, but since you have mentioned it, whats your GF dressed as ?

Lloyd wrote:I love these forums
Just like barracking for your own footy team, one eyed & biased. Most people only see what they want to see.
Me im perfect.

Fair comment, but you must remember the thread topic, it kind of keeps things in perspective

Julian Mayo wrote:

rah wrote:

Lloyd wrote:I love these forums
Just like barracking for your own footy team, one eyed & biased. Most people only see what they want to see.
Me im perfect.

I may only have one eye, but that is because I am dressed like a pirate.

Too much information, Rah, but since you have mentioned it, whats your GF dressed as ?

Mate that is private and I cannot tell you. If you want to see the pictures and video though go to http://www.imademygirlfrienddresslikeap ... a#%.com.au

I just wish Webber had taken that Renault spot when he had the chance. Renault would have won the constructors about 5 races ago.

For anyone bagging out Webber, look at how many times he has outqualified teammates, including this year. As for Heidfeld in races, the fact that he had more points at one stage was more related to luck than anything else. Put Webber in the right car (might not be next year by the looks of it) and give him a little more time to get experience at the front and he'll do the job.

Webber might have had over 50 races, but all of them have been in crap cars. You can't judge him on that.

I hope Jenson loves the fact that Mark kicked his butt in Japan from 7th when Jenson started in 2nd.

I'm so glad you said that Brado. Now JV has some fresh victim to chew up and spit out

rah wrote:

Julian Mayo wrote:

rah wrote:
I may only have one eye, but that is because I am dressed like a pirate.

Too much information, Rah, but since you have mentioned it, whats your GF dressed as ?

Mate that is private and I cannot tell you. If you want to see the pictures and video though go to http://www.imademygirlfrienddresslikeap ... a#%.com.au

I think I might give my innocent eyes a pass on that one

Byron Forbes wrote:

JayVee wrote:

Byron Forbes wrote:
Yeah, that Williams was as good this year as in any other year!

You don't have to go too far back

Montoya won in last year's Williams which wasn't better than this year! Also Raikkonen won last year in a bad McLaren.
Button should have won last year as he was in the second best car but didn't and that shows that he isn't a top class driver.

Good luck selling the idea that an offseason with reg changes is "not going back too far" in F1 time!

The only way anyone would have won in the Williams this year is if it swapped tyre manufacturers with Ferrari and stole that Indy GP. Renault and McLaren have dominated this year - everyone else is in division 2.

Ok I had to find some time to look up some stats so first Byron,

I am not saying that the cars aren't different, I was just saying that not too long ago (i.e last year) a McLaren and a Williams (both division 2 teams last year) won even with Ferraris total domination last year.