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It's hard to know what is going on. I read about Williams saying Ferrari had nothing to do with it.

But as usual, if I am proved to be wrong, I have a full backpeddle policy in place.

rah wrote:It's hard to know what is going on. I read about Williams saying Ferrari had nothing to do with it.

But as usual, if I am proved to be wrong, I have a full backpeddle policy in place.

Yes Max, whatever you say Max

Hey, don't swear at me!

Paul Stoddart is talking of the slower racing through turn 13 option for the M teams as if their speed had to be reduced drastically, like 250 instead of 350kph. 320kph, similar pace to MINARDI would have probably been ok(+ tyre change for safety reasons). Would the BRIDGESTONE drivers have hit such slow cars from behind even being aware of the problem? Is that a joke?

A fair account.............and a sooo serious Mr.Stoddart. But this was supposed to be a GP not a fun drive and for FERRARI a lot was on stake. The M teams simply failed to agree on something feasible, they speculated to find a solution which would give them a chance to still beat FERRARI.

Max Mosleys wooden mind didnt help but Im not sure many in his place would have simply agreed with a fun drive...

Any accident in that chicane might have been a disaster, and a legal one especially if someone got injured.

tullain wrote:Not working for a F1 team I have no idea how good their testing and simulation ability is, but I suspect it is pretty damm good. Do teams even have to run physically at a track to test performance , wear etc ? Seems not. There is no shortage of racing at Indy and no shortage of data, not to mention it is hardly the first time F1 has raced on the track either.

I don't think Bridgestone had anything to share. It is common knowledge for anyone involved in motor racing at Indianapolis that the left rear tire at that corner is subject to huge loads. Even if they did know something from their involvement via Firestone in IRL what could they tell Michelin ? Hey be careful as Turn 13 has huge loads ? Both manufacturers use to my knowledge very different design approaches to building F1 tires and very different mixes of chemical and physical grip. Without Michelin telling Bridgestone how they make their tires, how would Bridgestone be in a position to even judge or test to see if the Michelin tire was safe or to advise Michelin on what to change ?

Fact - no team tested at IMS. However, due to Firestones involvement in the recently completed Indy 500, Bridgestone effectively have. This is an unfair advantage at least. And a failure on the FIAs part to arrange testing for ALL teams at this track. I'll bet this changes next year!

Fact - Michelin had no probs here in the past. I find it hard to accept that they are so stupid that even their second conservative tyre was not suitable - this indicates a major change in track effects from the previous year, unless we want to believe that Michelin are complete idiots. And if the track is so different, then it is negligence on the FIA's part for not ensuring any appropriate testing was done, especially in light of the fact that it was recently resurfaced. I'm not sure exactly what the rules and procedures are with testing, but they're certainly FIA controlled. Even with the short 1 week gap from Canada, those cars could have been on track at IMS on Tuesday or maybe even Monday.

Fact - everyone wants to point the finger at Michelin, ignoring all other factors.

Fact - the FIA is VERY happy with everyone pointing the finger at Michelin. The charges against the Michelin runners might spark some very nasty hitbacks by the teams and Michelin and even Stoddart. Will the FIA pay for inflexible crudeness? Something's gotta give!

Ed wrote:There was no test at Indianapolis. The teams don't go there to test.

I've looked for the source and found this post by K-D

K-D wrote:....

There is a difference from last year to this year, in the implemetation of the 1 tire rule, however the Michelin shod teams send exactly two driver to the Indianapolis test (Massa and Davidson), so Michelin had clearly thought themselves fully updated on the charasteristics of the track

....

No I actually did mean a test at Indianapolis.

On another site I was led to belive this to be the case, shows how my better instincts should have prevailed. Then my post can not include that as an argument.

BYRON FORBES WROTE
Fact - no team tested at IMS. However, due to Firestones involvement in the recently completed Indy 500, Bridgestone effectively have. This is an unfair advantage at least. And a failure on the FIAs part to arrange testing for ALL teams at this track. I'll bet this changes next year!

Agreed, no F1 team tested at IMS.
Fact - Hisao Suganuma, Technical Manager, said: ?Sections of the circuit have been resurfaced since last year but have been ?diamond ground? to avoid any change in the nature of the track. This has been confirmed by our colleagues at Bridgestone/Firestone North America who have extensive experience of this circuit having recently completed a successful Indy 500."

BYRON FORBES WROTE
Fact - Michelin had no probs here in the past.

False - Ralph had an accident there last year. the cause was THOUGHT to be caused by carbon fibre shards, but the actual cause was never proven!
Michelin has also had tire failures this year prior to the US GP. Perhaps their more agressive approach to the tire war finally let them down? Remember they apparently have a totally different tire construction to the Bridgstone.

BYRON FORBES WROTE
I find it hard to accept that they are so stupid that even their second conservative tyre was not suitable - this indicates a major change in track effects from the previous year, unless we want to believe that Michelin are complete idiots. And if the track is so different, then it is negligence on the FIA's part for not ensuring any appropriate testing was done, especially in light of the fact that it was recently resurfaced.

Believe what you like, but the fact is firestone reported no change to the nature of the track due to resurfacing.
Here in the US it was reported that the new surface had caused problems for both NASCAR (goodyear tires) and IRL (firestone) when they tested at IMS after the resurfacing, BEFORE the diamond grinding took place. This is PRECISELY why the surface was diamond ground - to rectify the situation. This apparently was achieved as both Nascar and Indy ran without problems, so Goodyear, Firestone and Bridgestone have all run the circuit without problems.
I do not for a moment believe that Michelin are stupid, their results so far this season would suggest otherwise, maybe their conservative tyre only had a harder compound and not a different (more conservative)construction?

BYRON FORBES WROTE
I'm not sure exactly what the rules and procedures are with testing, but they're certainly FIA controlled.

Agreed - find out exactly what the rules are before you spout forth all sorts of tripe.

BYRON FORBES WROTE
Even with the short 1 week gap from Canada, those cars could have been on track at IMS on Tuesday or maybe even Monday.

False - Unlike many circuits on the F1 calender IMS is used frequently for other forms of racing in a totaly different configuration. The track was not ready for use by anyone until late on thursday afternoon with work crews finishing off preparations well into the evening.
Besides the fact that the cicuit was not ready, the rules are such that no additional testing/ practice will be permitted unless the circuit is new to all participants (such as China when the first race was run there)

BYRON FORBES WROTE
Fact - everyone wants to point the finger at Michelin, ignoring all other factors.

Agreed - one monumental C*CK UP BY MICHELIN!

BYRON FORBES WROTE
Fact - the FIA is VERY happy with everyone pointing the finger at Michelin. The charges against the Michelin runners might spark some very nasty hitbacks by the teams and Michelin and even Stoddart. Will the FIA pay for inflexible crudeness? Something's gotta give!

Not entirely true, the FIA (read Bernie Max and Co.) are pretty pissed off with Michelin, especially after the tire manufacturers were warned about producing substandard tires, but they do know where their money comes from.
We will all have to wait and see what the repercussions are as far as "hitbacks" are concerned.

Lets all see if a more conservative approach by michelin will be adopted and if so will it be as competitive?

PS - Do you have any other interesting "Conspiracy Theories" to share with the rest of us clueless people?

after reading Stoddy's Statement i wish to alter my thoughts on who is to blame;

Previously - Michelin & their teams
Now - Michelin, their teams & Mosley

bundy wrote:after reading Stoddy's Statement i wish to alter my thoughts on who is to blame;

Previously - Michelin & their teams
Now - Michelin, their teams & Mosley

There! Doesn't that feel better!

I posted this on the other thread too

The more I read about this the more I think Michelin and their teams did the right thing and minimised the damage to their reputation.

Only thing they did wrong (after the fact that their tyres were stuffed) was that they didn't officially pull out.

The FIA wanted to make a mockery of them, the options offered:

- Slow down on turn 13 and we'll help you penalise your drivers if they were caught speeding. Imagine the joke of Montoya, Alonso, Raikkonen being brought in every second lap for a drive-thru!!
Let alone the safety concerns, one car lifts going in, the other was planning to lift a few meters later, bang!! They take the corner flat!!!

- Go through the pit lane What for 73 times ? Not sure if the cars can handle that actually, they are certainly not designed for such. Besides, imagine the embarassment for Mercedes, BMW, Renault, Toyota and Honda with images beamed all over the world with their cars going through the pit lane 73 times, why because they can't go fast enough!!

Clearly the FIA wanted to make a joke of them, Michelin took full responsibilty and avoided their teams further embarassment.

Following Paul Stoddart's personal account of the event, the FIA have released a statement by FIA President Max Mosley giving his view on the event.
(Note it is in a Q & A format however this wasn't a press conference. i.e the questions were prepared/asked by the FIA)

Click here for the full statement

Ed wrote:Following Paul Stoddart's personal account of the event, the FIA have released a statement by FIA President Max Mosley giving his view on the event.
(Note it is in a Q & A format however this wasn't a press conference. i.e the questions were prepared/asked by the FIA)

Click here for the full statement

If you want to read a load of prepared rubbish

julian mayo wrote:

Ed wrote:Following Paul Stoddart's personal account of the event, the FIA have released a statement by FIA President Max Mosley giving his view on the event.
(Note it is in a Q & A format however this wasn't a press conference. i.e the questions were prepared/asked by the FIA)

Click here for the full statement

If you want to read a load of prepared rubbish

I completely agree

Not much wrong with Maxs statement, except the pit lane race version which is crap.

However the speed trap would have been feasible, as Max said there are many possible and regular reasons to drive with more conservative speed, be it fuel load, weakening brakes or whatever. And as he said this would be well within the skills of the drivers. Additionally, you have it black on white, they would have been allowed to change the left rear tyre to their liking according to the rules for safety reasons.

MICHELIN teams will have to pay no small money for damaging the US GP if not F1 as a sport. I for one hope there wont be additional sanctions in terms of points taken away or similar and that this great season continues as a close fight to the end.

stripping the teams of points would be ok....not drivers though