News On F1 Forums - Talk Formula 1

One thing that caught my attention in Melbourne is how Honda manages the race strategy.

I know that Barrichello had a poor qualifying, but what is the benefit of filling his car (potentially the same car that got the pole) with gas if in Melbourne, as in the Canada GP, is very likely that the Safety Car will be deployed? Wouldn't it be better to let him race and get rid of slowest cars easier?

He was lucky that the SC was deployed 4 times because his race was ruined behind Sato's car.

And what about they claiming that they decided to throw away 3 Championship points (4 from JB, one of them recovered by RB) asking Button not to cross the line?

Trading points that were there for a better starting position in Imola is something really weird. If by any chance he has a problem during qualifying they will regret this decision... And Button may lack these 4 points in the future.

Am I the only one who disagrees with them?

Andre_Brasil wrote:Am I the only one who disagrees with them?

The rationale for this is that Honda are determined to win a GP at any cost. They are aware that the Renault and the Mclaren are better cars and doubt they will catch up with them this season. They know Jenson is a potential race winner but needs to get that monkey off his back as soon as possible. Hense they do everything within their power to win GP's and focus on going for the championship in 2007. Remember this is Honda's first season in F1 since the 60's so they are not in a desperate hurry to win the championship right away. Does that sound plausable? It's in line with a lot of their public comments, they have repeated it often enough. 'we will stop at nothing to get Jenson's first win'

Andre_Brasil wrote:One thing that caught my attention in Melbourne is how Honda manages the race strategy.

I know that Barrichello had a poor qualifying, but what is the benefit of filling his car (potentially the same car that got the pole) with gas if in Melbourne, as in the Canada GP, is very likely that the Safety Car will be deployed? Wouldn't it be better to let him race and get rid of slowest cars easier?

He was lucky that the SC was deployed 4 times because his race was ruined behind Sato's car.

And what about they claiming that they decided to throw away 3 Championship points (4 from JB, one of them recovered by RB) asking Button not to cross the line?

Trading points that were there for a better starting position in Imola is something really weird. If by any chance he has a problem during qualifying they will regret this decision... And Button may lack these 4 points in the future.

Am I the only one who disagrees with them?

Hi Andre. I've not read anything since the race where it was suggested that Honda threw away the points for a better starting position in San Marino, but you are saying that's what they did!!!!!!

That's a hellava risk! I can see that their criteria is that with a new engine in Imola, Button could finish high in the points but without it, he might not get any points at all. So that on balance they will acrue more points overall by this strategy - assuming that Button will finish the race (no incidents or breakdowns) in a position higher that where he was before his blow up. But still, if everything goes tits up in Imola, that's 3 points they've binned...ouch!

Does that make any sense? I've had some beers tonight, but I think I know what I'm on about...

Andre_Brasil wrote:
And what about they claiming that they decided to throw away 3 Championship points (4 from JB, one of them recovered by RB) asking Button not to cross the line?

Trading points that were there for a better starting position in Imola is something really weird. If by any chance he has a problem during qualifying they will regret this decision... And Button may lack these 4 points in the future.

Am I the only one who disagrees with them?

Maybe someone can clarify things a bit for me 'cause as I understand it there is no penalty for an engine change if the engine blows during the race (eg Fisi in bahrain). The penalty applies only if the engine blows after the race (eg DC on the slow down lap at bahrain)
In this case the engine actually blew during the race as JB hadn't crossed the line.
Therefore, technically, he could have coasted across the line and scored the points without a penalty.
I am sure that Ferrari would have made a strong case for this (if the rules are not perfectly clear) and probably have won the arguement! Of course this would have elicited LOUD shouts of "CHEATING" again, but thats what the rules are there for,.......to be bent or tested when ever possible.............

F1-NUT wrote: Hi Andre. I've not read anything since the race where it was suggested that Honda threw away the points for a better starting position in San Marino, but you are saying that's what they did!!!!!!

As it happened, one of the commentators(I'm not quite sure which one) mentioned that that must've been why he pulled over instead of coasting over the line........thats all I heard on the situation, no real proof, I dont think Honda have said too much on the situation either.....

GhoGho wrote: Maybe someone can clarify things a bit for me 'cause as I understand it there is no penalty for an engine change if the engine blows during the race (eg Fisi in bahrain). The penalty applies only if the engine blows after the race (eg DC on the slow down lap at bahrain)
In this case the engine actually blew during the race as JB hadn't crossed the line.
Therefore, technically, he could have coasted across the line and scored the points without a penalty.

If he was able to coast (and I don't believe that he was), his car would not get a DNF but a finish regardless of when his engine blew. As soon as a driver crosses the line in the 1st of 2 races on his engine, the driver must use the same engine in the following race otherwise the penalty applies.

The FIA regulation "87-a" on this states:

Any driver who failed to finish the race at the first of the two Events for reasons beyond the control of the team or driver, may start the second with a different engine without a penalty being incurred.

The theory about Button intentionally slowing was suggested by a commentator and several sites picked it up and ran with it, however, had Honda really told Button in that very short period of time to stop the car prior to the finish line (and the FIA have access to all the radio conversations) they would probably be penalised as it shows that the team intentionally decided to stop the car (i.e not beyond their control).
Also keep in mind that "for reasons beyond the control of the team or driver" was added to the regulation because BAR Honda decided to pull in both their "healthy" cars at the end of the last Australian Grand Prix to retire them so they can get new engines at the following race and then the loophole was closed.

Saying Honda is so eager for JB to win a race (or even finish on the podium!!) that they'd give away points stretches credulity for me. In the first place, Jense just had the best chance he's going to have all season for a win --and he couldn't even hang on for more than fifth or sixth place. And Melborne is supposed to be a place where it's hard to overtake.

Didn't take Fernando long, tho, did it? maybe nobody told him about Honda's plans? Or J.B.'s need to break the nut??

When Richards gave Jense a car he could win with; he didn't win. What makes you think he can win with a lesser car?

Jim Watt

Andre_Brasil wrote:
Am I the only one who disagrees with them?

Hi Andre,Welcome!Its been long since u made an appearance here

As Ed mentioned,FIA monitors the radio conversations,i dont know what conversation they had to impose those rules mentioned above,but Nick Fry said it was a quick call made by engineers.

Even Nick Fry thinks this call could be costly in the long season ahead,but they are prepared to take the risk.I think so too.

I personally think it was a wrong call,cos i had him in my picks of 8npole

GhoGho wrote: Maybe someone can clarify things a bit for me 'cause as I understand it there is no penalty for an engine change if the engine blows during the race (eg Fisi in bahrain). The penalty applies only if the engine blows after the race (eg DC on the slow down lap at bahrain)
In this case the engine actually blew during the race as JB hadn't crossed the line. Therefore, technically, he could have coasted across the line and scored the points without a penalty.

Brilliant deduction GhoGho! They need you on the Honda team The rule is f****** stupid and your analysis exemplifies just how stupid the FIA and Max are when they come up with their idiotic cost cutting exercises that don't even cut costs.

Jim Watt wrote::
When Richards gave Jense a car he could win with; he didn't win. What makes you think he can win with a lesser car?

Er Jim

With respect DR never gave Jenson a winning car, the Ferrari had bridgestone tyres, the best chassis, the most reliable engine ever and one of the most powerful. There was no point where Jenson had more than an opportunity to luck into a win. The Mclaren and the Renault were both coming on strong from mid season 2004 and they couldn't do any more than deprive Jenson of the occassional podium. They were fortunate on two occassions when Jenson hit trouble and they took the two wins when Ferarri did drop the ball.

Jenson's tyre problems at Melbourne are a strength at some circuits where temperatures are high. To condemn a man because he was unable to defend his position in a car that has little or no grip compared to the competition behind him is at best ill considered.

The Honda team have repeatedly stated that they are not concerned about the 2006 championship as a whole they are after their first race win. It has been a source of embarrassment not only for them but also Jenson.

MSchumacher was made to look very ordinary in Melbourne because of tyre problems and the loss of his flexy wings. His car did some very fast laps and some exceedingly slow ones.

It was a dissapointing race for a lot of drivers even Kimi didn't have a consistent race pace. This was all to do with tyres and how the car uses them. Need I remind you that Jenson got pole with just one lap less of fuel than Fernando.

Apologies to GhoGho, Ed is of course absolutely right but I stand by what I said about engines lasting two races as being stupid. When Max dies I will make a special journey to his grave where I will jump up and down on it with unbridled joy.

Snowy wrote:

Er Jim

With respect DR never gave Jenson a winning car, the Ferrari had bridgestone tyres, the best chassis, the most reliable engine ever and one of the most powerful. There was no point where Jenson had more than an opportunity to luck into a win. The Mclaren and the Renault were both coming on strong from mid season 2004 and they couldn't do any more than deprive Jenson of the occassional podium. They were fortunate on two occassions when Jenson hit trouble and they took the two wins when Ferarri did drop the ball.

Jenson's tyre problems at Melbourne are a strength at some circuits where temperatures are high. To condemn a man because he was unable to defend his position in a car that has little or no grip compared to the competition behind him is at best ill considered.

The Honda team have repeatedly stated that they are not concerned about the 2006 championship as a whole they are after their first race win. It has been a source of embarrassment not only for them but also Jenson.

And

When Max dies I will make a special journey to his grave where I will jump up and down on it with unbridled joy. [/quote]

thanks, Snowy, for the thoughtful posting. MS was inconsistent indeed and Kimi also looked sad. I, too, will jump cheerfully on Max's remains.

But come on, mate. it's GP #one hundred and three or something??!! for Jense. Even Fisi, with JORDAN for crying out loud, did better than that! And D.C. managed his first win in Melborne ('97) for Ron D. --& that was J.V.'s Williams year, by the by. And Ferrari were not slouches then either.

Turning to the Red Cars: You're right: Michael was on bridgesones -- and he looked amateur. Though his 'stones were not the same ones Jense was running. Indeed, the race commentators said Ferrari was completely "caught out" by the low temps at Melborne. So, if anything, his tires were even worse than Jenson's. But had he not goofed, you think he'd not have overtaken the Jense?

And what are we to make of this "caught out" excuse, anyway? Duh. The team manager can't check the weather channel to see what to expect on race weekend? The team manager can't prepare for a range of track conditions? I thought this was F1. That there were two and three hundred man teams! And millions of dollars or pounds or euros poured into them. If the team manager can't do that, what CAN he do? I think Ross and Jean are just "past it." No dishonor. But come on. Exucses are cheap. And, anyway, assuming the team managers all do, in fact, do their jobs and give the drivers the best machines they can. Isn't it up to them? The drivers? Isn't that why theirs is the only championship anyone cares about?

And as far as whole **^% the tire business goes: just how often do good drivers attribute their winning performances to superior tires? (I mean aside from Michael, who customarily includes even the chef in his victory speeches). As for the others, even when they win, they usuallly complain about their tires, like, for instance, Fernando, this past week-end.

And of course when they fall off the podium and out of the points they are always pointing at tires. and brakes. and aero packages. and transmissions. and engines. and team managers. and pit crews etc. etc.


Though Fernando complained after the race that he had a hard time getting his tires up to temp, he sure DIDN'T have a particularlyhard time putting space between himself and Jense! In fact, he showed EVERYONE the back of his machine --and flew like there was no tomorrow. If not for the safety periods, he'd have had time for lunch after the checkered flag before Kimi rolled into sight.

And would have retired for a nap before Jense finally flamed out.

You may well be right that DR's car for Jense wasn't as good as that year's Ferrari --but if what we've seen so far is anything to go on, Honda sure isn't giving him a better one this year!

Unless, of course, they are. In which case, I leave others to draw whatever inferences seem right.

Finally, isn't it odd, by the way, how far back Fisi was? Maybe he had bad tires, too? Or, wait a minute, he had the same tires as Fernando. The same car. The same pit crew.

Oh, but he had the flu... that's a good one. But judging from the communication from the Renault pits that was heard round the world, it won't cut it next time. if there IS a next time.

No. I reckon if Jense had been in Fisi's car, his results would have been similar. His excuses would have been different. probably.

Sorry.

Jim

OK Jim just one point Fisi started from the pit lane, had to drive in dirty air most of the race make numerous attempts to overtake and defend his position. All these things take it out of the car oh and I think he was using a two race old engine and Fernando a new one. There are always going to be variables and if you just want to put people down then that's fair enough. But being hyper critical of everyone except the race winners performance is unpleasant for everyone that doesn't happen to support/worship the race winner. Rather than trying to find fault with Fisi, Jense, Jarno, Massa and all the others we should try to empathise a little.

There are very few M Schumachers and Lance Armstrongs in the world. Putting people down is the easiest thing in the world, in Britain we like to build 'em up then knock them down we are very good at that, it's a bit wierd 'cause it's the down side of one of our strengths - we love an underdog - unfortunately it has very painful reprocussions. I think we should just be thankful they're out there giving their best.

With regard Jense again he has competed in a lot of races but he is only 25, four years younger than M Webber and six or seven years younger than Damon Hill (born 1960 race debut 1992) was when he made his F1 debut with Brabham. So I do not see any great problem with his race record or accumplishments thus far. I don't see him loosing his footing in F1 for quite some time, he may not be the quickest driver at the moment but you never know he might just surprise us all one day.

Snowy wrote:

Brilliant deduction GhoGho! They need you on the Honda team

I keep telling them this but no joy just yet

Maybe I can learn to left foot brake and replace RB?

Jim Watt wrote:

thanks, Snowy, for the thoughtful posting. MS was inconsistent indeed and Kimi also looked sad. I, too, will jump cheerfully on Max's remains.

Me Three

Jim Watt wrote:
But come on, mate. it's GP #one hundred and three or something??!! for Jense. Even Fisi, with JORDAN for crying out loud, did better than that! And D.C. managed his first win in Melborne ('97) for Ron D. --& that was J.V.'s Williams year, by the by. And Ferrari were not slouches then either.

Yup, agree JB is taking too long

Jim Watt wrote:
Turning to the Red Cars: You're right: Michael was on bridgesones -- and he looked amateur. Though his 'stones were not the same ones Jense was running. Indeed, the race commentators said Ferrari was completely "caught out" by the low temps at Melborne. So, if anything, his tires were even worse than Jenson's. But had he not goofed, you think he'd not have overtaken the Jense?

Jense didnt have stones, and barring any further pace car runs MS probably would have been seriously challenging JB.

Jim Watt wrote:
And what are we to make of this "caught out" excuse, anyway? Duh. The team manager can't check the weather channel to see what to expect on race weekend? The team manager can't prepare for a range of track conditions? I thought this was F1. That there were two and three hundred man teams! And millions of dollars or pounds or euros poured into them. If the team manager can't do that, what CAN he do? I think Ross and Jean are just "past it." No dishonor. But come on. Exucses are cheap. And, anyway, assuming the team managers all do, in fact, do their jobs and give the drivers the best machines they can. Isn't it up to them? The drivers? Isn't that why theirs is the only championship anyone cares about?

Yup and even with hundreds of people and millions of dollars Ferrari cannot control the weather. (Good thing too or we might have a lot more wet races). Jokes asside, Todt was refering more to the bad weather in europe the week before which prevented them doing the required testing of the new compound/construction before the race weekend. This prompted them to go with a tried and tested tyre rather than risk an untested tyre. Hindsight shows it was probably a bad decision as proved by toyota! The only major change toyota made prior to the race was the tyre choice!

Jim Watt wrote:
And as far as whole **^% the tire business goes: just how often do good drivers attribute their winning performances to superior tires? (I mean aside from Michael, who customarily includes even the chef in his victory speeches). As for the others, even when they win, they usuallly complain about their tires, like, for instance, Fernando, this past week-end.

MS also never directly blamed the tires for bad performance last year, but rather the "package". (Hmmm,....has he lost his?)

Jim Watt wrote:
And of course when they fall off the podium and out of the points they are always pointing at tires. and brakes. and aero packages. and transmissions. and engines. and team managers. and pit crews etc. etc.

Ahh, the fresh sound of the modern era.........

Jim Watt wrote:
Though Fernando complained after the race that he had a hard time getting his tires up to temp, he sure DIDN'T have a particularlyhard time putting space between himself and Jense! In fact, he showed EVERYONE the back of his machine --and flew like there was no tomorrow.

Sweet FA was showing the sign of a true champion, he was the ONLY driver really agressively warming his his tyres behind the pace car! Why were there no others being as agressive as him? Looking after fragile machinery? Conserving fuel as instructed by the race engineer? (Fisi was asked to do this so renault could check figures, while we all saw FA didnt). His tactic payed off big time!

Jim Watt wrote:
Finally, isn't it odd, by the way, how far back Fisi was? Maybe he had bad tires, too? Or, wait a minute, he had the same tires as Fernando. The same car. The same pit crew.

Oh, but he had the flu... that's a good one. But judging from the communication from the Renault pits that was heard round the world, it won't cut it next time. if there IS a next time.

The whole world heard renault claim that the cars were the same. (good PR from renault!)
No two cars are exactly the same! Drivers set them up the way they prefer.
Fisi's engine was already one race old, FA's was new with whatever upgrades were available. Fisi will only get that engine next race.
Fisi was asked to conserve fuel behind the pace car, Was Alonso? (judging from the tyre warming exercise, No!)
What effect does multiple heat cycling have on the tires? Fisi's tire must have cooled much more than Alonsos.

Jim Watt wrote:
No. I reckon if Jense had been in Fisi's car, his results would have been similar. His excuses would have been different. probably.

Probably so.

Jim Watt wrote:
Sorry.

Jim

Dont be sorry, just enjoy!

Right you are, Snowy. I guess you don't know that I HATE Renault like some people on this list despise Ferrari. That I am a long-suffering Williams fan (thank GOD they have dumped BMW! ) & that I always loved Eddie Jordan, too. It's harder to care about McLaren, even though they are probably the most professional and intellectual team out there. I only rooted, really, for their drivers back when they had DC and Mikka -- because they were such a big threat to the Ferrari team (which I love with a madness that is truly inexplicable. I think it is owing to the mystique of the greatness of Enzo and the Italian spirit that gave us Puccini and Verdi. When I was growing up I heard all the stories from my father about what was happening with the feud between Ferrari & Lancia and the Alfas and Maserati teams. And the old man striking terror into the hearts of his drivers and chasing women young enough to be his grand-daughters and just, in general, operating in ways that would give Max & Bernie absoloootly deep brown stained trousers and heart palpitations. Ah those days, when drivers scorned any kind of conditioning other than the sort you get on the piazza after midnight dancing on the tables etc. etc.

I know, I know. All that is madness and silly and politically incorrect and an insult to the kind of professionalism we have these days.

So who, secretly, really IS my favorite today? No surprise there, I'm sure: Kimi.


I love how he gets into --and out of-- trouble (both on and off the course); I love how he drives the wheels off his car.

I mean, really, who else [in today's active circle] would have driven that s@&*^ until the front suspension finally failed spectacularly at the ring last year?

Not Michael. (too intelligent) Not DC (too thoughtful) ; not Rubens (too spoiled) and so on down the list.

Not ANYONE else EXCEPT Fernando, JPM or Nico.

Who are my OTHER favs;

Indeed, I can't WAIT for Fernando to come to McLaren next year. I don't expect KIMI to stay on, but if he does: WOW! & more!

Oh, in closing, I have to say that I have for long (too long now I think) defended Fisi (he didn't have the right car; he was spectacular when everything clicked; he was underrated etc etc)

and I still like DC (tho' I understand that he's only averaging a win a season (he started in '94, right Jay Vee? and he's got 12 wins (or 13). I especially liked him standing up to evil Max last year (something the diplomatic german didn't attempt). I would be happy, too, to see Webber win; again because he's just a nice guy.

But for the Jense. I appreciate your defending him; I know what it's like to champion someone, especially when it seems he's cursed with dreadful luck! Or incredibly GOOD Luck, like MS.

[I have stand up for Michael sometimes, too because I think people are DREADFULLY unfair about his incredible record. They like to make dark remarks about his lack of "sporting sense" --as though your average F1 driver wouldn't drive right over his own mother to get a top step on the podium!!]

But for Jense. In all fairness, I ask you: isn't a lot of it his own doing? I mean people (including me) don't like JV because of his arrogance and his financial dealing and his whining -- but at least he did win a WDC.

I mean, what about Button-Gate? Are we supposed to blame his legal team for giving him bad advice? I can't help but think (and I think I am NOT alone in this) that JB is getting what's coming to him.

And I think there'll be pandemonium when we have a podium this year with Nico standing ABOVE JB! I hope I see it!! I really really really hope I do!!! Where the ranking is Renault - Williams - Honda. Or, even better, Williams - Renault - Honda!

Ah, sweet dreams of glory. It's what keeps me coming back.

Jim Watt