2010 F1 regulations - budget cap - Teams threaten to quit

Ed · Post by Ed » Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:54 pm

It is reported that representatives from Ferrari, Red Bull and Toyota are meeting today with Max Mosley.
The FIA list of entries into the 2010 F1 Championship is due out tomorrow.

Mosley meets teams as zero-hour looms

Meantime, Renault's boss has indicated that they want more revenue from Formula 1 if they are to remain in the sport.

Latest news items on the FIA-FOTA crisis:
FOTA response not all 'negative' - FIA
Friday looms as the day F1 split
Renault tells suppliers F1 exit possible

Julian Mayo · Post by **Julian Mayo** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:01 am

When the split occurs today, do the teams go off and do their own thing until Mad Max quits (or gets stuck into his son's left over cocaine ( see autopy result in many media).?
Then, when there is a voice of reason emanating from from the FIA bunker, do the teams once more unite?
Either way, Mad Max seems destinied to go down in history as the man (?) who destroyed F1, as "La Stamp" headlined today.

Ed · Post by Ed » Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:10 pm

The FIA have published the list of teams entering the 2010 F1 Championship. They list Ferrari, Red Bull Racing and Toro Rosso as enterants despite those three submitting conditional entries. THe remaining 5 FOTA teams have until the 19th of June to lift their conditions otherwise the FIA will consider other applicants.

The 3 new teams are:
Campos, Manor and US F1. All of which will be powered by Cosworth

Of the current teams:
Williams, Force India, Ferrari, Red Bull and Toro Rosso are listed as uncondiftional

McLaren, BMW Sauber, Renault, Toyota and Brawn are listing as conditional

So we have another week for this crisis to be solved but it seems this list will put the FIA and FOTA further apart.

Ed · Post by Ed » Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:13 pm

Ferrari issued the following press release:

Ferrari shall not take part in the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship until the conditions of its entry are satisfied

Following publication of the list of entries for the 2010 Formula One World Championship, which includes Ferrari as an unconditional entrant, Ferrari wishes to state the following:
• Ferrari submitted on 29 May 2009 an entry to the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship which is subject to certain conditions. As of today, these conditions have not been met;
• notwithstanding this and despite Ferrari's previous written notice to the FIA not to do so, the FIA has included Ferrari as a unconditional participant in next year's Formula One World Championship. For the avoidance of any doubt, Ferrari reaffirms that it shall not take part in the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship under the regulations adopted by the FIA in violation of Ferrari's rights under a written agreement with the FIA.

The Red Bull Racing team issued the following press release:

Following the FIA’s publication of the entry list for the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship, Red Bull Racing would like to make it clear that its entry was submitted as a conditional entry, consistent with those of all other FOTA members.

Red Bull Racing remains committed to FOTA and fully endorses all its principles.

And the Toro Rosso team issued the following press release:

Following the FIA’s publication of the entry list for the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship, Scuderia Toro Rosso would like to make it clear that its entry was submitted as a conditional entry, consistent with those of all other FOTA members.

Scuderia Toro Rosso remains committed to FOTA and fully endorses all its principles.

jido · Post by **jido** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:20 pm

Max Mosley is going too far. Is there a pilot in the FIA?

Well now we can wait until the 19th for next episode.

Julian Mayo · Post by **Julian Mayo** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:14 am

Where is that guy with the death ray.

Julian Mayo · Post by **Julian Mayo** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:28 am

The Eurpean Car Manufacturers have thrown their weight behind Ferrari, RedBull etc, and have warned that an alternative (breakaway) series is on the cards.
The World Motor Sport Council, and The FIA Senate, are now involved, with Ferrari in particular asking for clear governance of the sport.
imho it is now very plain to all that this is simply an issue between FOTA and one Mad Max. The Fota teams have agreed to all the requests By MM, and the only sticking point is how the implementation is carried out. Surely that is not too hard to resolve, unless there is an autocratic ego of megelomaniac proportions involved.
I, for one, am ROTFLMAO, at the thought of the FIA Senate being involved.
Stand by for a fleet of ambulances ferrying heart attack victims from the FIA Bunker.

mlittle · Post by **mlittle** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:14 am

Julian Mayo wrote:The Eurpean Car Manufacturers have thrown their weight behind Ferrari, RedBull etc, and have warned that an alternative (breakaway) series is on the cards.
The World Motor Sport Council, and The FIA Senate, are now involved, with Ferrari in particular asking for clear governance of the sport.
imho it is now very plain to all that this is simply an issue between FOTA and one Mad Max. The Fota teams have agreed to all the requests By MM, and the only sticking point is how the implementation is carried out. Surely that is not too hard to resolve, unless there is an autocratic ego of megelomaniac proportions involved.
I, for one, am ROTFLMAO, at the thought of the FIA Senate being involved.
Stand by for a fleet of ambulances ferrying heart attack victims from the FIA Bunker.

"an alternative (breakaway) series..........."

Did anyone outside the U.S. learn anything watching the CART/IRL split? OW racing in North America darn well nearly died(......and it could well go away still thanks to the continued incompetence of the powers that be there) as a result of the 12-yr. split and FOTA wants to go down the same road in F1? Granted the circumstances are a lot different trying to compare F1 to Indy but that has to be one of the most ridiculous ideas to come down the pike. All it is IMO is a Ferrari power grab; they don't want anyone telling them how to run the sport unless it is someone the Tifosi can control.

Perhaps there can be a compromise, but two things should happen.......
(1)the FIA should take the budget cap off the table and instead put some sort of revenue-sharing plan in place similar to what FOM does every year(I think they divide it up amongst the teams based on points IIRC)
(2)in turn, FOTA agrees to enter the 2010 F1 season as competitors.

On a broader level, though....the question's still there, How do we control the costs of the sport without damaging the sport in return? In a sense, part of the question's been answered already(in-season testing bans, having one tire manufacturer[no tire war a/la Bridgestone v. Michelin], allowing teams to purchase engine/gearbox combos[Cosworth/XR package IIRC], etc.. Still, more needs to be done or we could indeed be witnessing F1's swansong.............

Maksutov · Post by **Maksutov** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:19 am

[/quote]

Welcome to the forums, Maksutov!

As to the topic at hand, what we're seeing btwn. Sado-Max and FOTA is a game of chicken, which can only hurt the sport as a whole. FOTA(principally Ferrari) want to be able to spend whatever they want without regard, while the FIA is trying to do whatever it can to control those costs. I said it in an earlier post, but it bears repeating,

One of the problems I've noticed in motorsports for years is the continued increase in the costs to the teams in competing, not just in Formula 1 but in many major series across the board.

Look at some of the series that have disappeared from the motorsports map, not just in North America but internationally............IMSA's GT Championship[which ultimately split into Grand-Am and the ALMS], WSC[World Sportscar Championship], Can-Am, Trans-Am[prior to 2006], DTM[German Touring Cars pre-1996], etc. Eventually one of three things are going to happen.......either FOTA wins and the sport's costs continue to spiral ever-upward, the FIA prevails and puts some form of sanity into the sport(granted, FIA and sanity can be mutally exclusive, but that's for another thread.......

) or we see a CART/IRL-style split of Formula 1(which could make the AOW split look peaceful.......

).

Now, to be fair, Julian's right when he says that,

the FIA charter was to police the rules, not make them

but then I think, "Okay, who makes the rules then, the FIA or FOTA?" FWIW, I don't trust the teams to make the rules themselves; if their manner of running the sport is anything similar to what I've seen in NA motorsports, I definitely don't care to see that occur. OTOH, the FIA has had a bad habit of screwing up the sport over the years irrespective of what any of the teams can do. Hopefully, they'll find common ground and end this crisis, but it's going to take both sides giving up something for it to happen.[/quote]

Well there you go, you said it, "the FIA has had a bad habit of screwing up the sport over the years irrespective of what any of the teams can do."

Period.

Yes Ferrari and the big teams should be controlled in some way for their expenditure. However even that point can also be argued. Lets take for example the time when McLaren and or Renault and Williams were leading the championships, during those times - even though Ferrari had so much more money at their disposal they failed to deliver which means to tell you that on top of everything, it is not all about money!. Look for example Brawn GP!!! they are a small puny team compared to Ferrari or McLaren.

Nobody gives the right to Ferrari or any other team to control how many people they want to employ to polish the car or suck on the hose. it is their own business.

However what CAN indeed control the overall cost is the rules imposed on construction and manufacturing and performance of the cars which Max Mosley clearly does not know how to do. Every rule he came up with for the past 10 years has led to disaster in cost and/or expenditure. On top of that the rules are very poorly composed with loop holes that allow teams (not necessarily Ferrari) to unfairly exploit the them. See for example the double diffuser, that is only one out of at least a thousand over the past 10 years. So instead of working on one single set of rules and perfecting those rules carefully with input from the teams or manufacturers, Max Mosley has lost it. On top of that he runs FIA with a personal agenda, and frankly one person should not be allowed to rule the formula 1 without even the slightest consideration for external input as the teams have tried to do for many years.

so this is not something that has happened now, it is something that has been happening for years. FOTA is not trying to control the rules but it wants proper governance and stability so that the old fart stops messing with the rules every single year. FOTA are not seeking to make rules but to at least be heard and considered -two heads are always better then one, and it is in good interest of the sport.

So when you say: "who is to make the rules FIA or FOTA?" well firstly that question would be a legitimate if we could consider the FIA to be a governing international body as it is supposed to be. but that is not the case is it? It is a governing person. one old man who is rich and who doesn't want to leave. he makes the rules, he changes them when he wants, how he wants, without consideration, without team work and without governance.

Maksutov · Post by **Maksutov** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:20 am

mlittle wrote:
Julian Mayo wrote:
Maksutov wrote:
I agree. I've been following F1 for a very long time, almost 20 years now, and I can tell you that Max Mosley needs to go. He has completely lost it, has been losing it for the past 10 years and he got worse each year.

His constant changing of rules is the sole reason why the costs went up in the first place. He messed everything up and now he wants to cover his own crap. I can see the benefits of cost reduction and so do the FOTA teams, but the issue here is not cost it is the governance of Formula 1, stability of rules, professionalism of the sport which Max Mosley has completely destroyed. This is not war between FOTA and FIA, this is WAR between FOTA and one person - "Max Mosley" who still holds a grudge about his Nazi slave sex tape. This man is too old and stupid.

EDITED

Welcome to the forums, Maksutov!

As to the topic at hand, what we're seeing btwn. Sado-Max and FOTA is a game of chicken, which can only hurt the sport as a whole. FOTA(principally Ferrari) want to be able to spend whatever they want without regard, while the FIA is trying to do whatever it can to control those costs. I said it in an earlier post, but it bears repeating,
One of the problems I've noticed in motorsports for years is the continued increase in the costs to the teams in competing, not just in Formula 1 but in many major series across the board.
Look at some of the series that have disappeared from the motorsports map, not just in North America but internationally............IMSA's GT Championship[which ultimately split into Grand-Am and the ALMS], WSC[World Sportscar Championship], Can-Am, Trans-Am[prior to 2006], DTM[German Touring Cars pre-1996], etc. Eventually one of three things are going to happen.......either FOTA wins and the sport's costs continue to spiral ever-upward, the FIA prevails and puts some form of sanity into the sport(granted, FIA and sanity can be mutally exclusive, but that's for another thread....... ) or we see a CART/IRL-style split of Formula 1(which could make the AOW split look peaceful....... ).

Now, to be fair, Julian's right when he says that,
the FIA charter was to police the rules, not make them
but then I think, "Okay, who makes the rules then, the FIA or FOTA?" FWIW, I don't trust the teams to make the rules themselves; if their manner of running the sport is anything similar to what I've seen in NA motorsports, I definitely don't care to see that occur. OTOH, the FIA has had a bad habit of screwing up the sport over the years irrespective of what any of the teams can do. Hopefully, they'll find common ground and end this crisis, but it's going to take both sides giving up something for it to happen.

Well there you go, you said it, "the FIA has had a bad habit of screwing up the sport over the years irrespective of what any of the teams can do."

Period.

Yes Ferrari and the big teams should be controlled in some way for their expenditure. However even that point can also be argued. Lets take for example the time when McLaren and or Renault and Williams were leading the championships, during those times - even though Ferrari had so much more money at their disposal they failed to deliver which means to tell you that on top of everything, it is not all about money!. Look for example Brawn GP!!! they are a small puny team compared to Ferrari or McLaren.

Nobody gives the right to Ferrari or any other team to control how many people they want to employ to polish the car or suck on the hose. it is their own business.

However what CAN indeed control the overall cost is the rules imposed on construction and manufacturing and performance of the cars which Max Mosley clearly does not know how to do. Every rule he came up with for the past 10 years has led to disaster in cost and/or expenditure. On top of that the rules are very poorly composed with loop holes that allow teams (not necessarily Ferrari) to unfairly exploit the them. See for example the double diffuser, that is only one out of at least a thousand over the past 10 years. So instead of working on one single set of rules and perfecting those rules carefully with input from the teams or manufacturers, Max Mosley has lost it. On top of that he runs FIA with a personal agenda, and frankly one person should not be allowed to rule the formula 1 without even the slightest consideration for external input as the teams have tried to do for many years.

so this is not something that has happened now, it is something that has been happening for years. FOTA is not trying to control the rules but it wants proper governance and stability so that the old fart stops messing with the rules every single year. FOTA are not seeking to make rules but to at least be heard and considered -two heads are always better then one, and it is in good interest of the sport.

So when you say: "who is to make the rules FIA or FOTA?" well firstly that question would be a legitimate if we could consider the FIA to be a governing international body as it is supposed to be. but that is not the case is it? It is a governing person. one old man who is rich and who doesn't want to leave. he makes the rules, he changes them when he wants, how he wants, without consideration, without team work and without governance.

sorry for posting twice.

Maksutov · Post by **Maksutov** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:25 am

Julian Mayo wrote:My thoughts are, that the teams would be policed by the FIA, as they have said, and having stated that they are as committed to the budget cap as Max, only over a longer time frame, I do not see why a compromise is so f*#gging hard.
Except for Max.
Who, imho panicked when Honda pulled the plug, and that is what has caused the whole farcical bucket of bollocks.
So, again imho, one man, and I use the term "man' very loosely, will happily jeopardise F1 for the sake of his very tatty pride.

true.. and he is too rich and powerful and no one can kick him out of the office

Maksutov · Post by **Maksutov** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:35 am

Julian Mayo wrote:It is June.
Mad Max said that he would make a decision about standing for re-election in June.
With mainstream media starting to take significant interest in the F1 Brouhaha, perhaps MM might like to take the honourable way out, and just fade quietly into the obscurity of a private dungeon, and leave F1 to those who care about it.
Ahhhh.....perchance to dream
Interesting that the teams have unilaterally agreed to bin Mad Max's Kers dream, citing the massive expenditure already incurred, and which would be ongoing to make it workable.
IMHO, no team wants to throw one single euro more than it has to at F1.
Why would they in these times?
Mad Max is a prawn past it's use by date. Would someone please whistle up a cat.

Yes Max has said that he plans to quit willingly by the end of this year (he said that last year just after the Nazi sex thing) only to win further support and to not get sacked. The person obviously represents the worst in all aspects to racing and Formula 1 and professionalism of the sport. It is clear that he is in full control of all members within FIA. It is the only logical explanation why he is still there and running the show. If he didnt get the sack last year he never will.

Maksutov · Post by **Maksutov** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:43 am

Julian Mayo wrote:When the split occurs today, do the teams go off and do their own thing until Mad Max quits (or gets stuck into his son's left over cocaine ( see autopy result in many media).?
Then, when there is a voice of reason emanating from from the FIA bunker, do the teams once more unite?
Either way, Mad Max seems destinied to go down in history as the man (?) who destroyed F1, as "La Stamp" headlined today.

well i honestly would like teams to split and start something new and i will pay to watch them since they will be the best technologically advanced sport, and im sure many others will. Bernie who now wares diapers im sure, will have a heart attack and Max ... pffft.. that guy wont even know what happened he will still think that Ferrari races for him... lol

Julian Mayo · Post by **Julian Mayo** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:47 am

I totally respect everones opinions, and the right to air them in these forums,
I do however disagree on one salient point.
All the teams, Ferrari INCLUDED, wish to cut expenditure.
Just not on Max's terms.
Under his proposed regs for next year, the teams have to design and build NEW cars for next season. The current cars are in their FIRST season, ferchrissakes.
They have at least another full season of development to approach their full potential.
FOTA do NOT want to control the sport. The combined teams DO want transparent control of the sport, with sensible adjudication, and avenues of appeal against detrimental rules etc., which is what the FIA should be doing.
IS there anyone who believes that the FIA is run in a democratic manner, with fair adjucation offered to all teams competing under it's auspices?
That the FIA Senate operates independently of the wants and wishes of it's President?
The FIA, in it's current form is a dictatorship, nothing less.
Mad Max is not prepared to put the sport before his personal wishes.
And that, imho, is the crux of the issue.

Julian Mayo · Post by **Julian Mayo** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:49 am

Maksutov wrote:
Julian Mayo wrote:When the split occurs today, do the teams go off and do their own thing until Mad Max quits (or gets stuck into his son's left over cocaine ( see autopy result in many media).?
Then, when there is a voice of reason emanating from from the FIA bunker, do the teams once more unite?
Either way, Mad Max seems destinied to go down in history as the man (?) who destroyed F1, as "La Stamp" headlined today.

well i honestly would like teams to split and start something new and i will pay to watch them since they will be the best technologically advanced sport, and im sure many others will. Bernie who now wares diapers im sure, will have a heart attack and Max ... pffft.. that guy wont even know what happened he will still think that Ferrari races for him... lol

If the split does happen, I will be watching Brawn, Ferrari, RedBull, Toyota, etc, with leading edge technology, challenging each other on some of the best circuits in the world.