V8 testing for 2006

[mlittle]

Mercedes used to build V8 turbos back in the 1990's for some of the teams in CART, especially for teams like Penske, who used those engines for years(as a Mercedes-Ilmor V8].

[rah]

Not quoting you but Renault provide 4 litre V8 engines to the GP 2 series

What about Mercedes

I stand corrected.

[Julian Mayo]

Not quoting you but Renault provide 4 litre V8 engines to the GP 2 series

What about Mercedes

I stand corrected.

Sigh, get used to it. Don't facts foil a good argument!

[Byron Forbes]

Lets face it - chopping 2 cylinders off the engine will make no huge difference to the manufacturrers in F1. Maybe the odd teething problem at the start of next year as with any reg change.

What I found surprising, in an article I read somewhere recently, was the claim that there is a larger vibration issue with V8s as opposed to the V10s - I allways thought this was the other way aronnd. Doesn't any 90deg V engine, with 4,8,12,16, etc cylinders enjoy perfect balance? That's whay I would expect from a 4 stroke.

[Julian Mayo]

There has been an inherent vibration problem in V8s since they were created. In road vehicles they run external "harmonic balance" attachments at the front of the crank to overcome it. The older 308s were notorious for spitting the balance off near peak revs, and chucking a rod thru bits that were not meant to have holes in them. One learrned to drive, when"having a bit of a go" with one ear tuned for a tinkling noise as it hit the road. If you heard it, and threw the clutch fast enough, it could keep the repair bills down a lot. I am happy to be corrected on this, I believe it is something to do with the length of the crank in an 8 configuration, with that specific no. of rods hanging off it, regardless of the cubic capacity. The Commodore V6 has different problems in that it is a "harsh" engine with a coarse idle, compared to a straight 6, yet runs smoothly with the power on.

[Ed]

Last week Panis was testing the Toyota V8 in a development chassis at Monza. Here are some of the comments from him and the Chief Test Engineer:

It's only the second time we have tested the V8 engine and it looks positive. We did almost 80 laps on the first day and I wouldn't have thought that kind of mileage was possible yet, especially at a track as demanding for engines as Monza. The computer simulations showed us that a V8 would be around 5.5s per lap slower than a V10 here, and that's just how it worked out.

On how different the V8 is compared to the V10 he said:

Not too different, actually. The vibration is less than I expected. You have to work a bit on the gear ratios because the torque in the middle of the rev range is where you notice the main difference compared with the V10.

Gerd Pfeiffer (chief test engineer) said:

I was very pleased with the way the V8 test went because we did 450kms with the latest engine, which was almost three times the distance that we ran in the initial shakedown at Jerez before the summer break. The reliability was strong and Olivier's comments were very positive. With the development chassis we were running it for the first time and gathering some data that we can analyse at Cologne before doing further tests with the car.

Best time set by Panis was a 1:27.983 in a development chassis running the V8 engine.
Best time set by Trulli was a 1:21.350 in this year's car

Full Toyota Test round-up from Monza

[danilen1]

are the regulations going to be the same in that engines must last 2 grand prix weekends?
I think that would mean that we'll be seeing a lot of engine failures in the first half of the season.

Could be interesting, i hope the mclarens wont be as fast as they are this year... Its been a situation where instead of getting racing, you see a silver car leading by half a lap, then its just a question of whether or not their engine will last. Although watching the blue renaults whizz past the slowing mclarens is always fun, i wouldnt call that racing lol

[Ed]

On the 14th and 15th of September McLaren tested their V8 engine for the first time.

Test Driver Pedro de la Rosa was at the wheel and said:

Pedro de la Rosa: "The last two days of testing have gone well and we are on schedule with the development programme. There is obviously a big difference in power between the Mercedes-Benz V10 and the V8, and therefore I had to adjust my driving style. In between runs over the last couple of days, the engineers have been analysing the data and making changes to the car. It is positive that we were testing with the new engine without problems and long delays. During this test we have also been looking at the difference in vibration between the Mercedes-Benz V10 and V8 engines; however we didn't find anything we had not expected."

Best time set by de la Rosa was a 1:22.974
Best time set by Wurz was a 1:17.673 in this year's car on the same day. Wurz set a 1:17.109 a day earlier

Full McLaren Mercedes statement

[Ed]

Toyota conducted another V8 test at Jerez between the 28th and 30th of September.

When Ricardo Zonta was asked about his thoughts on the V8 he said

Well, just as Olivier Panis said when he drove with the V8 engine for the first time, we have two cylinders less and therefore 20% less power, so every team and every driver is going to find the cars less challenging, because part of the reason for the new engine regulations is to stop speeds getting too high in F1. You hear people talking about the harsher vibrations of a V8 engine and so I was actually pleasantly surprised at how smooth the Toyota is. I think the engine guys have done a good job.

And on the progress made so far

When Olivier first drove the car at Jerez he was not using the engine to its full potential because it was just a shakedown test. But even then he predicted that a 1m20s lap should be possible around Jerez with a V8 and that it would be about 2.5s slower than a V10-engined car around here. By the second day of the test, that's exactly the time I was down to, so Olivier should take up fortune-telling!

The team was also testing the B spec car which they plan to race in the final two races of the season with the hope of being able to challenge for 3rd in the Constructors Championship.

Technical Director Mike Gascoyne said

There is an inherent risk with all the unknowns involved in two flyaway races, but we feel that fourth place in the constructors championship is secure after Brazil and it's unlikely that we will be able to challenge for third. So, bearing that in mind, we think it's worth taking the risk and if we get a good result in Japan maybe we might be able to push for third at the final race in Shanghai

Best time set by Ricardo Zonta was a 1:20.111
Best time set by Jarno Trulli was a 1:18.836. Trulli set a 1:17.047 on the following day

Full Toyota Jerez Test Round-up

[Julian Mayo]

It will be interesting to see how long it takes the teams to close the gap to this years times.

[Ed]

In 1995 the engine capacity was dropped from 3.5 to 3 litres. Here are a few Pole times from both the 1994 and 1995 seasons:

Brazil (first race of the seasonin 94 and 95)

94: Senna - 1:15.962 (Williams Renault V10)
95: Hill - 1:20.081 (Williams Renault V10)

For reference, this year's pole time with race fuel was 1:11.988 however it isn't an exact comparison as the track was slightly modified

Monaco

94: Schumacher - 1:18.560 (Benetton Ford Cosworth V8 )
95: Hill - 1:21.952 (Williams Renault V10)


Silverstone

94: Hill - 1:24.960 (Williams Renault V10)
95: Hill - 1:28.960 (Williams Renautl V10)

Monza

94: Alesi - 1:23.844 (Ferrari V12)
95: Coulthard - 1:24.462 (Williams Renault V10)


Japan

94: Schumacher - 1:37.209 (Benetton Ford Cosworth V8 )
95: Schumacher - 1:38.023 (Benetton Renautl V10)


Adelaide (final race of the season)

94: Mansell - 1:16.179 (Williams Renault V10)
95: Hill - 1:15.505 (Williams Renault V10)

While there are other factors to consider, you can see the gap shrinking as the season progressed.

The same will happen next year but the gap will probably shrink faster due to the tyre competition between Michelin and Bridgestone. (In 94 and 95 there was only 1 supplier - GoodYear )

[Julian Mayo]

Yes, thanks Ed. It would seem they will be up to comparable times about 2/3ds into the season.

[mlittle]

Makes sense; the more experience the teams get with the V8's, the better they'll be with them(and the faster the cars will go, and so on). Only time will tell as to the impact the reduction in engine size from V10 down to V8 will have on the racing itself.

[Ed]

Parts of this was posted on another thread but it is worth posting again here due to its relevance.

At the 2005 Brazilian Grand Prix, Ross Brawn (Ferrari) and Geoff Willis (BAR Honda) were asked about the V8 engines. Here is what they said:

Q: (Steve Cooper ? F1 Racing) To Ross and Jeff, you?ve both had quite extensive experience of running a V8 now and I wonder if you?ve noticed any unusual anomalies or any kind of weird characteristics which you hadn?t expected and whether we?ll see F1 cars next year perhaps being a little bit different from what they are this year?

Ross Brawn: With Pat (Symonds), in fact, having probably raced one of the last V8 cars in Formula One, I have fond memories of the vibration issues that you get with the configuration of a V8 and my colleagues and staff at Ferrari haven?t had that experience and despite my expectations, it?s still been a new experience for them to have bits falling off that never fell off before and were never a problem before. The biggest single change is just the vibration of a V8, certainly in certain planes and certain modes, is very high and you have to rubber-mount everything, you have to give it plenty of clearance. We are having components fail which have done high mileage on a V10. Ferrari made the step from a V12 to a V10 and they thought that was bad. Now they are discovering what a V8?s all about. But it?s a nice challenge, an interesting engineering challenge for everyone. The engine has less torque and less power but that actually has some benefits in the way that the tyres work and the handling of the car. It is an interesting engineering challenge. Rather like this year with Toyota, it?s wiping the slate clean again, everyone is having to start from a fresh reference and we don?t really know where we should be. What level of power, what rpm, what fuel consumption, what is the reference? Because over a period in Formula One you acquire that information, you can observe what other teams are doing, you can see what?s achievable and therefore you know what you have to try to achieve yourself. Nobody really knows with a V8; whether 700 horsepower is enough, 750 or 800, who knows? We will find out in the first part of next year. Those that don?t have the highest power output will have to catch up very quickly and those that will, can consolidate a bit and work on other aspects. It?s a very interesting challenge and one that we have had a reasonable amount of time to organise ourselves so, harping back to my earlier point, it has been less frustrating because we have had the time to work on it properly.

Geoff Willis: Well, I suppose the correct answer is that we are planning not to have any anomalies with a V8. We did run a V8 earlier this season, very much in very early prototype form. Since then, Honda have been working on more stages of prototypes, a lot of dyno running, and we will be back running when testing starts again after the end of the season. Certainly, I personally don?t have any experience of running a V8 in Formula One but Honda have a lot of experience running V8s and it?s a very big programme for them, and I think we will be well prepared for next year. As Ross says, the exciting bit and the difficult bit about a big change in the rules is you don?t really know where the benchmark is and I think that will be quite interesting for the early testing of the V8s when all the teams are trying to work out whether they have got it right and whether they are strong in the right areas. As well as being reduced capacity in a V8, we also have other changes. There are some material changes in the engine for cost control reasons and also the removal of the moving trumpets. That will have an effect on the torque characteristics of the engine, particularly during the start which is another new challenge and something we won?t have a good measure on until we get track testing.

From the Friday FIA Press Conferece in Brazil

Ross Brawn is referring to his days with Pat Symonds at Benetton when they last raced Cosworth Ford V8 engine

The Ford Cosworth V8 remained in F1 until 97. In 95 with Forti, Pacific, Simtek, Minardi and Sauber, in 96 with Forti and Minardi, in 97 with Lola and Tyrell.
There was also the Hart V8 which raced in 95 and 96 (Footwork) and 97 (Minardi)

[Ed]

The drop in capacity is much higher than the 94/95 season. In 95 the drop was 14.3% but now it is 20%. However, I beleive the increase in the grip levels of the tyres will compensate for that. This year was the first for the tyre manufacturers to run qualifying and the race on a single tyre and I would expect to see more improvements next year.

When you take power away, drivers will always complain. When Zonta jumped into the V8, he would have been dissapointed with the big drop in power but they will adjust and take it to the limit. I don't think the racing will be much different.