Michael Schumacher, Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve

[JayVee]

In Jerez you have to study the second movie with his own view and you will find JAQUES passing manoevre somewhat weird. Imagine you sitting in MICHAELs car what would you see, and where could you go? Maybe a foul, but a minor one.

That minor foul as you call it lost him second place in the championship and left him with a black scar on his career for ever that he will always be remembered for regardless of how many championships he won.

[RE30B#16]

I have to say MICHAEL looks even less "guilty" than I thought after replaying those movies several times. Very much a question of angles, but no way he could have reacted differently in Adelaide, no way to see the amount of damage to his car there before DAMON hits him from behind, no way DAMONs move was particularly clever after he saw exactly what happened to MICHAEL with a great chance to pass him a bit later.

F1Greyhound,

I've heard of stand by your man, but this is ridiculous. Michael clearly was weaving ahead of Villeneuve and got punted off because he knew he was not fast enough and was about to lose the championship if JV passed him.

Obviously, all of the officials thought his moves were bad enough to DQ him for the season. Case closed!

As for the Hill incident, I have that race on tape, I watched it live while I was taping it, AND I have the reaction of Bob Varsha or whoever the commentators were remarking about Schumacher's BS move back onto the racing line.

Don't destroy your own credibility by blindly defending something indefensible. I love Senna, but I'm never going to defend his retaliatory crashing of Prost at Suzuka in 1990.

Chris

[RE30B#16]

RE30B#16 I checked the date on your post and it was the 2nd, so I'll take it seriously. I've bitten my tongue so often on this incident that I'll need a blood transfusion soon so its time to respond.

If memory serves me, He was leading and Damon was 2nd. Damon needed to finish 3rd to take the championship. .

So far you?ve got it right

Then disaster struck. Michael overcooked it going into the chicane before the pit straight.

Yes Michael overcooked it, but not at the chicane before pit straight, which doesn?t exist. He went off at East Terrace Corner, a fairly tight 90degree left hander 5 turns after pit straight.

He hit the outside wall, and his race was effectively over which would've meant Hill wins.

Michael hit the wall almost perfectly side on and almost 'bounced' off it, without any apparent damage, and immediately recovered onto the track, there is no evidence that his race was over.

He coasted until Damon entered the blind chicane

This "blind chicane" is in thes ame place as the one you previously mentioned, i.e. nowhere. Your facts are so wrong I wonder if we are talking about the same incident.

Damon Hill did not see Michael go off but was close enough that he came around East Terrace corner just as Michael was recovering onto the track. Michael was never at any stage coasting.

The corner after East Terrace is Flinders St, between the two is a short straight. The V8?s don?t change gear on this straight, maybe the F1?s did, I don?t know, but the point is its very short. Damon, seeing Michael recovering onto the inside of the track going into Flinders Street corner, assumes that Michael is going to try an protect the inside. So Damon heads for the outside.

Michael, the racing genius that he is, outthinks Damon and also moves to the outside, in a direct line from his recovery point, no swerving involved. Damon finds Michael in front of him and briefly locks up his brakes avoiding running into the back of him.

Now I would like everyone to take a big deep breath and consider the following. They are both now in the braking zone for Flinders Street corner, a fairly tight 90 degree right hander. They are both on the racing line, Damon is directly behind Michael and travelling at the same speed after Damon?s lockup. I put it to you that it is impossible to make an acceptable pass from this position.

whereupon he purposely and unnecessarily drove into the center of the track unexpectedly causing Damon to hit him.

We are always told that Michael turned in on Damon. This is completely incorrect, he was turning because he was going round a corner, at no point did Michael deviate 1mm from the racing line.

Damon, frustrated at missing the opportunity to get past, makes a ludicrous lunge down the inside. There was no way he was going to make the corner. Maybe Michael should have yielded and let Damon go straight into the tyre barriers. Instead Michael took his rightful racing line through the corner. Damon, completely locked up and ploughing straight ahead, goes into the side of Michael. Michaels right rear goes over Damon?s front left, Michael nearly lands on his head, and Damon?s front suspension is wrecked.

I have this race on tape,

Are you sure, because most of what you say is completely wrong.

and it makes me angry everytime I see it.

It makes me angry every time I hear the misinformation that surrounds this incident. We always hear about how stoic Damon and Sir Frank didn?t comment after the incident. You know why they didn?t comment? Because they knew the incident was Damon?s fault, and to say any different would be lying. Instead they have a couple of digs at Michaels character and everybody else who are already predisposed against Michael buys the line that Michael tried to drive Damon off the road, time and time again we hear it from all the Michael-haters on this forum, when in fact it was the other way around.

Jerez ?97 , now that was a different story, and maybe Michael deserves his flawed reputation on the basis of that incident, but if he does, then Senna should be cast in the same light.

Cheers, Redhead

So let me get this straight-- because I mistakenly said the site of the crash was a chicane, you get to write off everything else I posted as 'almost completely wrong'? Interesting.

Listen, first off, I am not a "Michael hater" as someone implied. I watched that race live and looked at a replay of the incident about 2 weeks ago. Michael was going awfully slow after he hit the wall. To pull back on the race line in what is a blind corner, and your description of it as a 90 degree curve helps my argument about its blindness, was not the most heads up thing to do unless you were attempting to cause a problem for the following driver. Michael did this, and it worked.

The rest of your account on what happened is your opinion about what happened and not fact. But then again, I was merely watching it as well, so I guess my account is opinion as well. The fact that Damon and Frank Williams made no comment means nothing. FW is a strange character, and history bears this out.

AND I haven't seen as much fervor out of either you, F1Greyhound or any other of the MS bunch to defent his attempt to crash out Villeneuve. Why is that? I wonder.

Chris

Things that make you go, "hmm."

[RE30B#16]

I have to say MICHAEL looks even less "guilty" than I thought after replaying those movies several times. Very much a question of angles, but no way he could have reacted differently in Adelaide, no way to see the amount of damage to his car there before DAMON hits him from behind, no way DAMONs move was particularly clever after he saw exactly what happened to MICHAEL with a great chance to pass him a bit later.

In Jerez you have to study the second movie with his own view and you will find JAQUES passing manoevre somewhat weird. Imagine you sitting in MICHAELs car what would you see, and where could you go? Maybe a foul, but a minor one.

Altogether 2 race accidents, you could replay hundreds of these, but then these were WDC decisions and then there is the CHAMP involved, who some of you dont like(for his supremacy?).

F1-NUT, as a racer, would you have honestly taken a different line from MICHAEL?

I dont even want to say DAMONs and JAQUES lines were not understandable, they tried - one without luck and the other with. Thats racing...

Dream on...

Chris

[Julian Mayo]

FERRARI?

Are you talking of JEREZ? Or were you standing somewhere on the MARS?

Come on, Julian, some good arguments! I thought the 30points steal might have inspirited you to somewhat more....

I am fallible.

[Redhead]

So let me get this straight-- because I mistakenly said the site of the crash was a chicane, you get to write off everything else I posted as 'almost completely wrong'? Interesting.

No, it was simply because everything else you wrote was "almost completely wrong" Here's a few examples from your response to my post;

Michael was going awfully slow after he hit the wall. To pull back on the race line in what is a blind corner, and your description of it as a 90 degree curve helps my argument about its blindness, was not the most heads up thing to do unless you were attempting to cause a problem for the following driver. Michael did this, and it worked.

Fact 1: Michael accelerated back up to racing speed as soon as he got back onto the track, which was almost immediately after he went off. He was not going awfully slow.

Fact 2: Michael was back on the racing line less than halfway down the straight between the two corners and a long time before the contact occured. He did not "pull back on to the racing line in what is a blind corner" He did not pull back on any one, he was on the racing line the whole time, Damon was the one off line.

Fact 3: It is not a blind corner, there is a clear view of the corner from the apex of the previous corner, and Michale was clearly in Damons view as soon as he came around the previous corner, a long way before there was any contact.

I could go through your original post in a similar fashion.

The rest of your account on what happened is your opinion about what happened and not fact.

My account and analysis is based almost entirely on the farzad video which F1Nut provided a link to earlier.

AND I haven't seen as much fervor out of either you, F1Greyhound or any other of the MS bunch to defent his attempt to crash out Villeneuve. Why is that? I wonder.

Did you actually read my post Chris? Same goes for almost everyone else who has responded. At the end I clearly stated that Jerez 97 was a different story. I havent attempted to defend it becase it cant be defended. Although if JM was standing on the corner at the time, maybe that is why Schumi swerved?

The core of the argument that everyone uses to blame Schumi for the adelaide incident was that he was not racing. If you look closely at the videos you will see that he clearly was racing, he was back up to speed, there is no sign of any damage let alone being "crippled" or "coasting" or going "awfully slow" to quote a few of you. And if you can accept that, then you have to ask yourself what Damon ws doing stuffing it up the inside.

cheers,
Redhead.

[Julian Mayo]

That is ONE thing I refuse to be held responsible for

[RE30B#16]

Fact 1: Michael accelerated back up to racing speed as soon as he got back onto the track, which was almost immediately after he went off. He was not going awfully slow.

Fact 2: Michael was back on the racing line less than halfway down the straight between the two corners and a long time before the contact occured. He did not "pull back on to the racing line in what is a blind corner" He did not pull back on any one, he was on the racing line the whole time, Damon was the one off line.

Fact 3: It is not a blind corner, there is a clear view of the corner from the apex of the previous corner, and Michale was clearly in Damons view as soon as he came around the previous corner, a long way before there was any contact.

These are not facts, these are indeed your opinions. Listen, Redhead (and I love redheads), I saw this race when it happened and felt Michael made a bad move. No amount of argument from you is going to change my mind because I saw this race myself! I am not relying on someone's video, but since you bring that up, do you think the video has been "doctored"? He had everything to lose by letting Damon get past. I don't care what you say, Schumacher was not back up to racing speed!

You are right about my confusing your JV post with someone else's, but hey, I'm human. Just like Michael Schumacher, who turned into both Hill and Villeneuve!

I don't know if you've ever raced a car, but I've been thumped out of a race just like that. In my case, the other driver went for a hole that wasn't there. That jolt nearly knocked the teeth out of my head! Using the farzad video as reference, Hill was at the apex of the corner, and his left front wheel hit MS in the sidepod just behind his right front wheel. He was off the "normal" racing line, but what's normal for drivers this gifted?

After watching this clip over and over again, I admit I can see a different scenario from Schumacher's point of view. If I am Michael Schumacher, I am thinking, "Hill will win the championship if he finishes where he is, and I've just made a mistake and struck the wall. The car is still running. Let me quickly check to see if I've broken anything in the front suspension. No! The suspension is cool. Better get back on the steam before Hill catches me up." He goes for the apex of that last corner and boom! Hill, coming through at great speed knowing he is catching Schumacher by leaps and bounds already, suddenly sees Schumacher right in front going way slower and weaving. As any racer would, he dives for the inside since he is carrying more speed. Boom! "Just one of those deals" like the NASCAR boys love to say.

As I have said, I have this race on tape. Hill needed only to finish 3rd to win the championship regardless of where Schumacher finished. MS took the lead, but Hill was catching him like crazy, and looking like he was going to win the race outright anyway, as long as nothing went wrong, like a failure or an accident. If he doesn't finish at all, however, Schumacher wins. Schumacher undeniable mistake was hitting the wall. He knew at that point the the season was lost if:

A] He retires and Hill finishes 5th or better; or
B] He finishes behind Hill, and Hill finishes 3rd or better.

Note: Nigel Mansell won this race in his one off return to Williams after returning from CART.

Hopefully, this will be my last post on this topic.

Chris

[F1-NUT]

Just an interesting aside. It seems the Schumacher supporters don't like Schuie getting a bit of stick from those who 'don't like him' - fair enough, but how many of those people, including myself who don't like him now, were supporters of the man before all this?

I was a fan of Schuie before the Damon incident. I and many others really liked and supported him. Particularly how he turned arounf the Benetton team and showed himself to be a class above the rest. Someone of Sennaresque talent. Someone, I believe infinitely more talented than Hill. Sure, I was supporting the British guy, Damon in the championship, but up to that point (compounded by the JV incident), I had nothing but respect for Schumie. That respect disappeared and for good reason.

So just a little question. How many of you who now support Button, or Alonso or JPM or Webber or Kimi would still support their man if they thought,, rightly or wrongly, that he was cheat on the track? You can guess my answer

[<T-K>]

I have to say MICHAEL looks even less "guilty" than I thought after replaying those movies several times. Very much a question of angles, but no way he could have reacted differently in Adelaide, no way to see the amount of damage to his car there before DAMON hits him from behind, no way DAMONs move was particularly clever after he saw exactly what happened to MICHAEL with a great chance to pass him a bit later.

In Jerez you have to study the second movie with his own view and you will find JAQUES passing manoevre somewhat weird. Imagine you sitting in MICHAELs car what would you see, and where could you go? Maybe a foul, but a minor one.

I disagree....and I agree....

Like you say, after watching the video clips several times I have to say that the incident with DH looks more like MS fault each time I see it.....he should not have moved onto the racing line when he did, and from the looks of things, DH was far enough up the inside for MS to see him, and avoid contact.........

Now....Regarding the incident with JV, I dont think the blame can be pinned on MS......It was a bit too optimistic on JV's part.......from the video, it looks like MS is taking a normal line through the corner, and from what I see, there is no indication that MS purposefully turned into JV, he was just trying to get round the corner......


....T....

[Julian Mayo]

I lost respect for Schuey when he was double weaving in the touring car series, and being beaten by the forgotten man of F1.

[Julian Mayo]

Just an interesting aside. It seems the Schumacher supporters don't like Schuie getting a bit of stick from those who 'don't like him' - fair enough, but how many of those people, including myself who don't like him now, were supporters of the man before all this?

I was a fan of Schuie before the Damon incident. I and many others really liked and supported him. Particularly how he turned arounf the Benetton team and showed himself to be a class above the rest. Someone of Sennaresque talent. Someone, I believe infinitely more talented than Hill. Sure, I was supporting the British guy, Damon in the championship, but up to that point (compounded by the JV incident), I had nothing but respect for Schumie. That respect disappeared and for good reason.

So just a little question. How many of you who now support Button, or Alonso or JPM or Webber or Kimi would still support their man if they thought,, rightly or wrongly, that he was cheat on the track? You can guess my answer

Any driver, or team, who seeks to gain advantage by cheating, as against individual interpretation of the rules demeans F1.
I still enjoy Honda BBQs because they cheated.
I luxuriate in Schuey's poor performance for whatever reason because his performance record will forever be tainted in my mind.
Chris Amon lives on with honour.
Michael Schumaker lives on as a dishonourable man, who demeaned the sport for me, a fan. This is my personal adjudication.

[Kapel]

Just an interesting aside. It seems the Schumacher supporters don't like Schuie getting a bit of stick from those who 'don't like him' - fair enough, but how many of those people, including myself who don't like him now, were supporters of the man before all this?

I've been a Michael Schumacher fan for as long as i can remember,mayb from 1991,cos if i remeber clearly that was the first season live on TV for us in India.

I like the man driving talent & in his younger days his guts to challenged the likes of Aryton Senna,just like Alonso did to him in BahrainGP this year.(Dont count last year as Ferrari was worst than any TATA truck).

Adelaide & Jerez incidents were shame(dont wanna evaluate them anymore,they were shame),but,IMHO, that does not take the man's talent away,it has tarnished his image in front of a lot of his fans,but that doesnt diminish his talent in any ways. I've never spoken about his records,nor will i ever for anydriver,cos records mostly dont show the clear picture.There's always a miss somewhere especially in a competitive sport like this.

I became a huge Mika fan,when he overtook Michael in the famous Eau Rouge move at Spa or Montoya fan when in his first year he pulled out a move on Michael at Magny Cours or Alonso fan when he held Michael last year at Imola or the 130R overtaking move.

I'm a fan of talent,not image.The word cheating,is very personal opinion,Cos when it goes unnoticed its mostly termed as tactis for one's fav team/driver, but we butcher them if its done by a team/driver we love to hate.

How many of us on this thread have critised our fav.team/driver when he's performed badly On the other hand we defend them,when someone else critises them even when in our heart we are pissed with them.
Dont wanna go into the loyalty of a fan here...for some it changes every year with a new champion.

IMHO,a true loyal fan would stand by his fav.team/driver/sportsman when he's down,critises him when he's made a mistake & always cheer him for a well driven race,winner or not.

[Julian Mayo]

[Kapel]

I need a drink after this