FIA / GPMA - F1 from 2008 (FIA and GPMA in agreement!)

[JayVee]

The statement was not needed. You know of Julians views.

I think if Williams sign with FOM then it could swing others over to it.

There are three historical names in F1 at the mo. And if either side has two of them it will probably be the most succesful. Personally I don't know who I would prefer to run F1. But Williams are in the middle somewhere and their future is far from certain. Probably they will side with the manufacturers but its always hard to predict what FW will do.

How about next time you tell me what I am supposed to say ?

On the history bit, there are many teams that had lots of history but dissapeared. Who remembers Tyrell any more ?

To me it is clear, there is no way I'll support a championship based around Ferrari. Maybe they'll change their philosophy but that will take a long long time for me to be convinced.

Ahem....I remember Tyrells

Of course you do as do many of us!

But Formula 1 lives on!

[rah]

I remember them too, but I don't remember watching them.

I just can't see F1 without Ferrari. They are just too popular to ignore. If we have the split, all I see is disaster.

[Julian Mayo]

I remember them too, but I don't remember watching them.

I just can't see F1 without Ferrari. They are just too popular to ignore. If we have the split, all I see is disaster.

I believe the sport will survive, in one form or another, no matter what. Historically there have been examples of major teams pulling out and the sport went on., eg Mercedes, who were all conquering, left a large hole which waas filled over time. Our own premier class in Australia survived the stupid 2 litre debacle, and even the loss of this annual long weekend at The Mountain. Cheer up RAH, we idiot long suffering fans will continue to pay our money to support F1 in any guise. Thats why we are F1 Idiots after all

[Southernman]

My thoughts on this topic is that if the split does happen, the group that has the best package will be the one that survives. That means who has the best TV deal, drivers and tracks.

[mlittle]

Even though everyone probably knows where I stand on the impending split within Formula 1, I'll repeat it again....if there is a split between F1 and GPWC(similar to the CART/IRL split here in the States'), neither series is likely to grow; at best, they'll both muddle along, siphoning resources from everyone around. At worst.....I don't even want to think about it.

[Jim Watt]

I read it on the news so it must be true: the so-called "manufacturers" who are intent upon "rescuing F1" from the greedy clutches of Bernie and Sir Edward's Number One Boy have been issuing press releases again that they have managed "sworn agreements" from seven teams that will FORCE said Bernie & Max to the table where some kind of fair and equitable division of the F1 television income will be negotiated.

I, for one, would indeed be quaking in my shoes IF THERE WERE a MERCEDES BENZ team, a HONDA team, and a BMW team to go along with RENAULT, TOYOTA AND FERARRI. What we have, in fact, is RENAULT, who have a genuine chance to take the Constructors Title this year and TOYOTA, who might one day manage a second or third place in that race.

Now that Sauber is no longer being powered by Ferarri the idiots at BMW believe they will be able to snatch a title. Good! We like seeing the big boys bite it in public. Look at what happened to FIAT this year!! And wouldn't you love to be able to hear what they've been saying in the FORD boardrooms now that a Fizzy Drink maker is getting points and great publicity out of a machine they paid for!!

But not to worry; none of the best drivers will stay for long away from the chance to win at Monaco or Monza. In exactly the same way none of the best in America have been able to stay away from a shot at winning Indianapolis.

On the other hand, maybe Jenson will finally break his cherry with the breakaway boys; wouldn't that be history at its sweetest? I can see the headlines myself:

"Jenson Button brings home a world championship after a 13 race season which was nip and tuck with his closest competitors, Tak Sato and Mark Webber and the speedy Latins Pizzonia and Fisichella!"

I have no love of either Bernie or Max, as some of you will be aware, but I have even less love for those idiots --and they are legion-- who believe that the cause of truth, justice and fairness is advanced by ... lawyers and lobbyists!

The so-called "quarrel" between Tony's IRL and the "Champ Car boys" has its origins in a similar disaffection with a non-racer fiddling with the rules in the interest of "fairness" and "saving money."

Tony George, like Bernie and Max must chuckle every time he reads in the paper that his enemies are proposing to save money and advance the cause of fairness and truth by fielding their own series. That "saving money" ploy is especially rich: since all the money that is saved is siphoned straight into numbered accounts as out of reach as Osama Bin Laden!

So what, you say, do I counsel?

At the end of 2007 announce a FIVE YEAR FREEZE in the rules. Let there be no change for any reason whatsoever. If safety is an issue (a race course or a rule) then only by a secret ballot from racing drivers [someone who has started at least one race in the current year] and only by a 60% majority.

Hello. The racers will find a way to win inside the rules. Some of them will spend great amounts of money to find that way, others will get lucky. F1 will be "saved". People will forget who Bernie and Max are. As is right and proper.

And no one will whine about "fairness". Well none but little brother, JV, Webber, Rubens and Takuma... and face it, we love to hear them whine, don't we?

And Max won't even have to watch the races on his telly and Bernie can just stay home and count his coins. If it is absolutely necessary for SOMEONE to take on the task of answering whatever foolish questions the press might have for FIA and FOM, I am, myself, about to retire from my day job and would be happy to take that task on. I would even go on "wind tunnel" and face the terrible wrath of Robin Whatsisname.

But will this happen you say? No. Probably not. Bernie will buy them off, one by one. You heard it here first. Put it under your hat. Ron Dennis will be the first to "defect".

Think about it: he's powered by Ilmore anyway and there's bound to be someone [Nissan? Ford?] who would be willing to buy engines for him and badge them.

On to Japan! My recent cold-blooded acceptance of reality (including Renault in my picks [and high in them!] has brought me out of the 400s and into the MID 300s!!

Jim Watt
Indy dweller

[Julian Mayo]

Intereting, Jim. I agree with some of your points. I think that Williams will be the first to sign with Max, Bernie, Ferrari et al, if they dangle enough money in front of SF, for two reasons. Frank lives to beat Ferrari, but more importantly, as a non- manufacturer he is always going to be at a disadvantage running in a "manchamp series". Were he to run with them and start winning, the likes of Mercedes etc, would soon start drafting regulations to crush a minnow that was making them look silly. Their business "ethics" would demand it for the sake of their prroduct sales.
Why do you call it whining (except for little brother of course!) when drivers express opnions? Are you of the school that expects drvers to be seen and not heard? Whenever I have identified a safety issue in my line of work, my voice is heard long and loud. I have worked in a couple of fields where the odds of getting back home are not as high as in "normal" pursuits, and I damnwell made sure I "whined" if that increased my chances of getting home for dinner. F1 pilots surely have the same right?
If there is a split there are some circuits that would love to have an F1 race in any guise, ie Adelaide,Japanese n european, there is a new circuit under construction in NZ, and a world class facility planned for NSW, Australia. Monaco would possibly like to hold two meetings a year for that matter....I cant see Bernie and Max holding the principality to ransom.

[rah]

Looks like Williams are close to signing a deal. The amount offered by FOM to frank is around 30m pounds.

[Julian Mayo]

Looks like Williams are close to signing a deal. The amount offered by FOM to frank is around 30m pounds.

As quoted in "Pitpass.com" they aint saying nothing...which probably means they have. I can't see that SF has any option if Williams is to survive.
Incidentally, that was the first time in 27 years of F1 that Williams have lost both cars on the opening lap.

[Kapel]

Thanks Jim,agree with u on a few points.

As i see it,every manufacturer is negotiating his own deal with Bernie & will bargain with him on the basis of it importance in the sport.None of the teams in GPMA is bothered about how much the other manufacturer gets.Its a combine front for their own benefit.

Mclaren will definitely get the best bet,followed closely with Renault & Honda.
Toyota,i feel are not that powerful in F1 yet to command in a big way.They want to be in the series & win atleast one championship to first justify their budget.
BMW,though been in the sport for longer than Toyota,would for the first time have to walk the path without holding Sir Frank Williams' finger,which i feel would be tough.SF would have got them a better deal than what they can manage by themselves.

Now that this group have been renamed GPMA,this would put a block on the independent teams who buy engines from other manufacturers.None of the present independent teams (existing or new entrants) would now
be part of this group.They wouldnt want to feel the dependency of their engine manufacturers & would rather go with Bernie to have their own deal done.(Williams have unconfirmly signed with the FIA/FOM).

[Jim Watt]

Thanks Julien & Kapel for thoughtful responses

I agree with you, Julien, on SF's desire to wipe the red off the podium. I wasn't "counting" him as a real GPWC possibility, mostly because he's lost the BMW connection and will be running Cosworth V-8s next year, and probably Toyotas or Hondas after that. Unless, of course, Toyota is true to their mostly terrible corporate decisions and decides to go to the GPWC imagining that that would increase their chances of winning.

I'm sorry about my choice of words; by "whining" (which I always set against "winning"), I meant little brother's penchant for blaming his lack of success on track on ANYONE but himself: his pit crew, the Team manager (for giving him a less good car than his team-mate); the Safety Car or the F.I.A. or the stars or whatever.

Remember Jarno T. last year blaming, of all people, Flavio?! And then there's Rubino who also has been known to complain that Ferarri somehow gave him a car less well prepared than his team-mate's! !!

What I did NOT mean by "whining" was concerns about safety. [Remember: safety was the only excuse I would allow in my Five Year Rule Freeze for changes -- and only drivers would be allowed to vote!]

D. Coulthard is a good example of a thoughtful driver and his campaign for safety (like Jackie Stewart's before him) has my unconditional support; especially his position on increasing safety at testing tracks!! I am not one of the people who believes that taking steps to protect drivers from unsafe conditions is wimpy!!

I have to disagree with you about "F1 in any guise" though. F1 in any guise isn't F1.

For instance, next year you could run this year's V-10s and this year's chassises (what is the plural of chassis?!) at Adelaide or Monaco or Terre Haute, Indiana for that matter. Would I go to see them (Terre Haute's about 60 mi. away)? Maybe. Maybe not.

Would I think it was F1? No way. It would be like those "old tymer" events. Why? Because even if you managed, by some incredible expenditure of money to get Michael and Kimi and Fernando and JP Montoya and Mikka to drive them, it wouldn't be F1. (Although, in that case I would definitely go!)

But you're not likely to see anything like that, even if there is a GPWC series. It's much more likely that the drivers would include only those who so hate Bernie and Max that they'd ruin their chances of ever winning a world championship, and a bunch of second-raters.

And Kapel: I liked your reasoning on how Bernie will "pick off" the individual teams in the GPWC "compact."

I hadn't heard the rumors about poor Sir Frank capitulating already (but I wasn't counting him, as I said above, as a real "Manufacturer" since all he manufactures are very (for the most part) fast race cars into which he puts engines that he purchases or has purchased for him. Ron Dennis is similar to Sir Frank in this respect, but I like to believe that his connection with Ilmore is more like that of a complete manufacturer. He, though, like Sir Frank, rents out the right to companies to call his Ilmore's whatever they want --for a very good price. And that's why I don't buy the existence of a Merc team. When they start making the cars and engines in Stuttgart like they did in the glory days of Fangio, then you'll have a Mercedes Benz F1 car again!

So, if in fact you limit "manufacturers" to those who manufacture their car in their shop and power it with an engine they design and build, aren't you talking about Toyota and Ferrari? (Maybe Renault have earned the right not to be considered Benneton any more; I don't know how this is parsed, but the existence of Flavio B. don't look all that French to me --and neither, frankly, does the beautiful car under that hideous paint! Ah, but that's just my own prejudices. You can ignore those last few sentences!

In closing, there are probably many out there like me who would love to have a 36 race season with races every week end! And I think, in the end, there will be something like this. It can only be possible, though, by FIA dividing Formula One racing into differing "tiers" or "series" something like NASCAR's various "cups." And, like NASCAR, with some drivers and teams appearing in more than one tier.

But there will always and only be one F1. Only one World Champion. And Sir Frank is totally correct on what that means: Beating Ferrari!

In fact, as long as Ferrari and Bernie are friends, we will have to put up with Bernie. And I hope, one day, Bernie is no more than a memory of a bad dream.

Now I must itty off to my test data and try to decide who will win in Suzuka.

Jim Watt

[Julian Mayo]

thanks for the clarification Jim.
plural of chassis is chassis', I think. Couldnt agree more about little brother.
The drivers will go where the money is. Their careers are relatively short, after long apprenticeships.
I am sure many people are like me.....I will walk 2 miles to watch a billy-cart race............and who support most forms of motor racing.
If there were two F1 type series I would have to take the optimistic view and say "whoopee..thats twice as much racing"...BUT please don't get me wrong. I will be extremely saddened if a split does happen.
One other thing to consider is that there are bound to be a hell of a lot of rapid, exciting drivers out there who cannot afford to buy a seat in F1 under the present structure...perhaps even another Senna, Clarke, or Fangio.
In that I have to be optimistic about this, I am taking the view that all this is more about The Manufacturer teams versus Mad Max and his authoritarian approach to them., rather than money. I think that they want a sensible transparant governing body with an attitude which promotes competitive racing, rather than being subject to Maxs' whims and fancies which prevent the minnows from being anything else but that.
There is far more prestige for say, Toyota, to win the ManChamp against a competitive field,rather than flogging Minardi and Jordan every week.
There is an old saying in Motor Sport where manufacturers are involved, and that is "win on Sunday, sell cars on Monday".
Good luck with your picks, just take the opposite of mine and you will be a winner !

[Julian Mayo]

thanks for the clarification Jim.
plural of chassis is chassis', I think. Couldnt agree more about little brother.
The drivers will go where the money is. Their careers are relatively short, after long apprenticeships.
I am sure many people are like me.....I will walk 2 miles to watch a billy-cart race............and who support most forms of motor racing.
If there were two F1 type series I would have to take the optimistic view and say "whoopee..thats twice as much racing"...BUT please don't get me wrong. I will be extremely saddened if a split does happen.
One other thing to consider is that there are bound to be a hell of a lot of rapid, exciting drivers out there who cannot afford to buy a seat in F1 under the present structure...perhaps even another Senna, Clarke, or Fangio.
In that I have to be optimistic about this, I am taking the view that all this is more about The Manufacturer teams versus Mad Max and his authoritarian approach to them., rather than money. I think that they want a sensible transparant governing body with an attitude which promotes competitive racing, rather than being subject to Maxs' whims and fancies which prevent the minnows from being anything else but that.
There is far more prestige for say, Toyota, to win the ManChamp against a competitive field,rather than flogging Minardi and Jordan every week.
There is an old saying in Motor Sport where manufacturers are involved, and that is "win on Sunday, sell cars on Monday".
Good luck with your picks, just take the opposite of mine and you will be a winner !

[JayVee]

Good posts Jim but you can "almost" use the same arguments against the Bernie group.

I hope we will have a single series in 2008 but if there is a split I would go for the new one. At least it won't be a Max handicapped series where most of the money goes to the red team! And I (and many others) wouldn't watch another 2005 Indy!

There is no doubt that I would watch a Merc fighting a Renault fighting a Honda fighting a BMW fighting a Toyota rather than watching a Ferrari fighting a hmmmm lets see .... well second class Ferrari
We could even have a 5 way championship fight!!

Jim, I think you'll hear more about the fair treatment Barrichello got at Ferrari when he is out of his contract

And it is true Flavio isn't French but Todt isn't Italian and the Toyota isn't built in Japan

On the McLaren, Mercedes, Ilmore relationship, I just checked the McLaren website and they say "In January 2000, Mercedes' parent company DaimlerChrysler acquired a 40 per cent interest in the McLaren Group.
Since October 2002, DaimlerChrysler is the owner of a majority holding in Ilmor Engineering Ltd., which since 1993 has been responsible for the design, development and production of Mercedes-Benz Formula 1 engines in coordination with Mercedes-Benz. "

[Kapel]

Well said Jim,Julian...we all(fans) are sailing in the same boat..hope things get better n not worse with whatever series running in 2008...