FIA / GPMA - F1 from 2008 (FIA and GPMA in agreement!)

[Jim Watt]

Good posts Jim but you can "almost" use the same arguments against the Bernie group.

I hope we will have a single series in 2008 but if there is a split I would go for the new one. At least it won't be a Max handicapped series where most of the money goes to the red team! And I (and many others) wouldn't watch another 2005 Indy!

There is no doubt that I would watch a Merc fighting a Renault fighting a Honda fighting a BMW fighting a Toyota rather than watching a Ferrari fighting a hmmmm lets see .... well second class Ferrari
We could even have a 5 way championship fight!!

Jim, I think you'll hear more about the fair treatment Barrichello got at Ferrari when he is out of his contract

And it is true Flavio isn't French but Todt isn't Italian and the Toyota isn't built in Japan

On the McLaren, Mercedes, Ilmore relationship, I just checked the McLaren website and they say "In January 2000, Mercedes' parent company DaimlerChrysler acquired a 40 per cent interest in the McLaren Group. Since October 2002, DaimlerChrysler is the owner of a majority holding in Ilmor Engineering Ltd., which since 1993 has been responsible for the design, development and production of Mercedes-Benz Formula 1 engines in coordination with Mercedes-Benz. "[/quote]

Right JayVee, that's what it says (in lawyer talk) what it means is that Mercedes Benz is smarter than, say, Toyota: for far less money, skillfully invested, they get to put their little three pointed star out there and use the publicity to sell cars.

But owning 40% of Ron's house is like owning 49% of FOM -- you get the right to sign checks and some other perks; what you don't get is any say in anything important. As I said before, if the Merc boys ever want out, Ron Dennis could sell the same 40% to any number of manufacturers in a New York Minute.

Same goes for Ilmore. I don't know what "owner of a majority holding" means; only what it is supposed to look like it means. The folks in the factory making the engines are, I'll bet, more like to hoist a pint of bitter than one of those Bavarian steins.

As to Flavio, I wasn't clear: I meant his Benneton connection, not his native tongue...

I'm sure we'll hear lots from the Rubino; my point is that he was in a Ferrari. For years. When any number of drivers would not only have sold their souls for such a machine, but would have embarrassed Michael, not by following him, but by beating him --and THEN "observing team orders."

Like you I would prefer a three or four way run at the title, but I think it would be as much of a mistake to take Ferrari out of the running as it would be to take McLaren or Williams.

There has to be a solution, if for no other reason than to give the Ferrari haters a reason to live!

What's this about Max siphoning money to Maranello? Sounds about as likely to me as Bernie paying cab fare or picking up a lunch tab!

Jim

[JayVee]

I am not too sure about that Jim. If you search for Ilmore on google you get a site called Ilmor Marine Engines (http://www.ilmor.com). Under about they say "At the pinnacle of international auto racing, Ilmor-designed and manufactured Mercedes engines powered McLaren-Mercedes driver Mika Hakkinen to the 1998 and 1999 World Drivers? titles, while McLaren-Mercedes? David Coulthard won the prestigious Monaco Grand Prix in 2002, and Coulthard and teammate Kimi Raikkonen dominated the early part of the 2003 F1 season."

But nothing after the early part of 2003. I guess that is when Mercedes took control.

And I doubt Ron can easily get out of the relationship.

Flavio was ex Benetton and so too were most of the key people at Ferrari

I do agree on Rubens, apart from a few races he couldn't get close to Michael but lets face it he never got the same treatment (testing time, spare car, etc).

Ferrari were the ones who signed with Bernie and left the other manufacturers so you can't really blame the manufacturers!

The money issue, I think it is well known and admitted by Jean Todt that Ferrari under the current arrangement get more money than the other teams (cause they are special ) and Bernie just signed them for another 4 years on the same terms. Why do you think the others got angry!

But I do really hope to see a single series in 2008 with Alonso again beating Raikkonen wherever either may be

[Jim Watt]

Dear JayVee:

To respond to someone who's 34th in Pole'N8, I think I'll need to tug the old forelock and genuflect! I don't believe I've ever even been 34th for a single race! So, it is with considerable deference that I suggest the following clarifications:

The word around the speedshops here in Indy is what I relies on for my "inside" info and because of the early Penske connection to Ilmore, I suspect that some of what I hear is solid enough to, at least, speculate on.

Right now the power plant problem is a huge one for the IRL (Tony George's open-wheel series) and lots of rumors are flying around [including some about Honda], and, because Ilmore is a premier engine builder, but not, like Honda and Mercedes, a car "manufacturer," there is even one wild rumor that they might supply badged blocks for IRL next year, though no one is saying what the badges would be.

Anyway, the word is that Daimler Chrysler may be, like Ford before them, moving away from racing and towards more "environmentally friendly," kinds of images for their ad campaigns. And lately Mario Illien, the surviving founding member of Ilmore (you'll recall that Paul Morgan died when he crashed his WW II fighter plane back in '01), who has always been the more politically adroit and "business savvy" part of the company, is rumored to be looking for someone to buy Mercedes Benz's share back for him (at a reduced price, natch). And if these rumors are correct, the only sticking point is the price.

Now follow this: if there is a "Manufacturers" versus FIA development, and things follow the example of the IRL / Champ Car split, then suddenly Mario's leverage is weakened because Mercedes could stay with the "Manufacturers" and use Ilmore as supplier while, at the same time cutting back their financial investment to a minimum. No one is going to want to "buy in" to this sort ( "split series") of uncertainty. Everyone will wait till things fall out.

BUT. If there is no "split" or it looks like there won't be one (either because Sir Frank has already de-camped as some have said, or because Bernie is able to cut a deal with Honda or Toyota, both of which are said to be willing to be bought after the example of Ferrari), THEN Mercedes will want to get the best price they can for their holdings and Mario Illien will have a winning engine to peddle to whoever wants to see their name on the McLarens.

The past couple of seasons, where Ron's racing luck has soured, weakened his negotiating position. But his gorgeous new factory isn't as the press flacks thought, a monument to his ego; it's sound business practice and aimed DIRECTLY at Ferrari. So if the new Illien V-8 is as good as it is rumored to be, and if McLaren takes the Manufacturer's Cup, THEN all bets are off, and it'll be a run of Black & Silver that lasts longer even than Michael's and Jean Todt's Red Run.

As you can see from this garage (and pub!) thread of speculation and dreaming, the end of the Concorde agreement means a lot more than just reconfiguring the T.V. money and a great deal more than eliminating Ferrari's "unfair" advantage.

Yes, Flavio --along with those Michael took with him to Maranello-- is ex Benneton. My point was that Renault, having learned from the wide angle V-10 that was their factory's contribution to winning, returned to a reliable engine to put in a beautiful racing car along with real racing drivers to handle it. It isn't the machine or even Fernando the Cute that makes my teeth grit: it's the Renault NAME. I think my response to it must be analogous to yours to Ferrari.

And on that subject, would you be willing to say that, if you were team manager, you would spend as much time and money on Rubens as on Michael?

Or maybe I'm wrong; maybe it's Michael you hate?

And finally, I thought you were saying Max was funnelling Ferrari money. Of course Bernie paid Ferrari more than, say, Minardi or Jordan. More than he paid Ron or Sir Frank, too. But not a lot more, I shouldn't guess, than he paid Toyota and will be paying Honda. Is this unfair? Sure. It's called business. People come to see Ferrari win or Ferrari lose; most of them, probably, are more familiar with Red Bull than with Williams (who's that guy in the wheel chair?) or Ron Dennis. Which is, I imagine, just fine with both Sir Frank and Ron Dennis.

They don't want to sell cars; they just want to win races.

Finally, Fernando's numbers look good. No question.

Wait till next year.

Jim
down in the mid-300's!

[Julian Mayo]

Food for thought there, Jim

[Julian Mayo]

One has to wonder if the much rumoured second teams of Honda and McLaren are in fact devices to put more pressure on Max and the FIA.
Suzuki ( The Ex-F1 Driver) has been linked to the second Honda team, and Alesi to the second McLaren team.
The Concorde Agreement states that a team must design, build and own a car, are Honda and McLaren really going to support someone to that financial extent?

[Ed]

The Williams F1 team announced today their agreement with FOM and the FIA to extend the Concorde Agreement beyond 2008.

Williams F1 signed the agreement after the commercial rights holder, FOM agreed to an improved distribution of commercial revenues among participating teams.

Williams F1 Team Prinicpal Frank Williams said:

The manufacturers and teams have been a catalyst for a number of far reaching changes to the economics and administration of Formula One. We believe that the time has now come for everybody to remove the damaging uncertainty hanging over our sport and to commit to Formula One after 2008. I hope our decision will encourage the remainder of the Formula One community to join us and resolve any final details by working together. We all have a duty to avoid a damaging split in our sport and I believe the undertakings we have from FOM and the FIA provide a fair basis for bringing everyone
together in the interests of the sport.

The Williams deal with FOM and the FIA was expected following their split with BMW and securing an engine supply from Cosworth.

Full WilliamsF1 Statement

[JayVee]

Looks like there is something going on behind the scenes!

Your take on this Julian ?

[Julian Mayo]

Looks like there is something going on behind the scenes!

Your take on this Julian ?

IMHO guarenteed money now, as againsts potential money later

[Kapel]

It seems like every team is negotiating their own terms with FOM.

Lets see which of the manufacturers fall first in joining the FIA & FOM.

Any guess??

[Julian Mayo]

Toyota

[Kapel]

BMW

[Julian Mayo]

BMW

My toyota, your BMW, shuffle the cards,.......gasp..............McLaren

[Kapel]

BMW

My toyota, your BMW, shuffle the cards,.......gasp..............McLaren

If this happens your shuffle trick would make all the other teams fall like a pack of cards

[Julian Mayo]

Thats the gift Max is praying Santa will bring

[Graham Ross]

Toyota will be next!

They are on Bridgestones

And Honda have been sending some interesting signals too!