Michael's incident during qualifying (Monaco GP)

F1greyhound · Post by **F1greyhound** » Tue May 30, 2006 10:58 pm

I didnt say RENAULT need this kind of support neither that the FIA is closer to them than to FERRARI.

I just had a pragmatic look at the outcome of the decision.

Well possible that MICHAEL wins the most GP this year without getting the chance to win the WDC because of Monaco. Like it or not, I wont...

coronado · Post by **coronado** » Wed May 31, 2006 4:33 am

I am 100% convinced he did it on purpose, not big deal, he cheated before...but what I really do not understand is WHY, if he is under a penalty, the FIA let him change his strategy, start from the pit lane and change the motor.... then it is not a penalty any more.... he should start from the back of the grid with the same gas and the same motor he had.
Why Fisi could not change his strategy when was moved to the 10th place?
I don't get it...please explain to me.
Thanks

JayVee · Post by **JayVee** » Wed May 31, 2006 11:02 am

F1greyhound wrote:
Well possible that MICHAEL wins the most GP this year without getting the chance to win the WDC because of Monaco. Like it or not, I wont...

Doubt that would happen but if he did win the most races and Alonso was always there in 2nd or 3rd, Michael would lose the championship because of his own mistake in Australia when he scored 0. At least in Monaco he scored some points thanks to JT, MW, KR, CK

JayVee · Post by **JayVee** » Wed May 31, 2006 11:08 am

coronado wrote:I am 100% convinced he did it on purpose, not big deal, he cheated before...but what I really do not understand is WHY, if he is under a penalty, the FIA let him change his strategy, start from the pit lane and change the motor.... then it is not a penalty any more.... he should start from the back of the grid with the same gas and the same motor he had.
Why Fisi could not change his strategy when was moved to the 10th place?
I don't get it...please explain to me.
Thanks

That is a point. Perhaps they need to tighten the rules further. But thinking of it, teams do change strategy if they start from the back or the pit lane (not sure of the difference) and Ferrari saw that as the best approach. This one they played within the rules. It is OK!

jacfan · Post by **jacfan** » Wed May 31, 2006 11:53 am

coronado wrote:I am 100% convinced he did it on purpose, not big deal, he cheated before...but what I really do not understand is WHY, if he is under a penalty, the FIA let him change his strategy, start from the pit lane and change the motor.... then it is not a penalty any more.... he should start from the back of the grid with the same gas and the same motor he had.
Why Fisi could not change his strategy when was moved to the 10th place?
I don't get it...please explain to me.
Thanks

I would like to know the answer to that too. Shuey and Ferrari seem to have a different set of rules compared to the rest of the field.

coronado · Post by **coronado** » Wed May 31, 2006 12:21 pm

JayVee wrote:
coronado wrote:I am 100% convinced he did it on purpose, not big deal, he cheated before...but what I really do not understand is WHY, if he is under a penalty, the FIA let him change his strategy, start from the pit lane and change the motor.... then it is not a penalty any more.... he should start from the back of the grid with the same gas and the same motor he had.
Why Fisi could not change his strategy when was moved to the 10th place?
I don't get it...please explain to me.
Thanks
That is a point. Perhaps they need to tighten the rules further. But thinking of it, teams do change strategy if they start from the back or the pit lane (not sure of the difference) and Ferrari saw that as the best approach. This one they played within the rules. It is OK!

IMHO, is different a penalty than a a tactical decission...if the team for whatever reason decide to change the motor or they have to change it after a BBQ, then as a penalty, you must go 10 places back on the grid and once you are further back than 10th, you decide your strategy, gas etc.
BUT, if you do something wrong and the FIA decide you have to be punished, then I do not think is fair to let you minimize that punishment changing your strategy and motor and everything... it does not sound logic to me

Snowy · Post by **Snowy** » Wed May 31, 2006 9:58 pm

coronado wrote:
JayVee wrote:
coronado wrote:I am 100% convinced he did it on purpose, not big deal, he cheated before...but what I really do not understand is WHY, if he is under a penalty, the FIA let him change his strategy, start from the pit lane and change the motor.... then it is not a penalty any more.... he should start from the back of the grid with the same gas and the same motor he had.
Why Fisi could not change his strategy when was moved to the 10th place?
I don't get it...please explain to me.
Thanks
That is a point. Perhaps they need to tighten the rules further. But thinking of it, teams do change strategy if they start from the back or the pit lane (not sure of the difference) and Ferrari saw that as the best approach. This one they played within the rules. It is OK!
IMHO, is different a penalty than a a tactical decission...if the team for whatever reason decide to change the motor or they have to change it after a BBQ, then as a penalty, you must go 10 places back on the grid and once you are further back than 10th, you decide your strategy, gas etc.
BUT, if you do something wrong and the FIA decide you have to be punished, then I do not think is fair to let you minimize that punishment changing your strategy and motor and everything... it does not sound logic to me

The rules have always been written by idiots and taken advantage of by cleaver studious heads like Ross Brawn. I remember MS winning a race in the pit lane serving a 10sec stop go penalty! They never think of these things till it's too late! "Oh lets have a twenty minute period where they burn off fuel and we'll give them back the fuel they burn"...

how stupid are the FIA?

EDIT: Political comment removed. Sorry Snowy

God save us from the powers that be!!

F1greyhound · Post by **F1greyhound** » Wed May 31, 2006 11:00 pm

The (too hard, WDC deciding..) penalty sounded MICHAELS car had to start from the back. Exactly what they did, exactly according to the rules.

How many drivers have previously blocked others in qualifying without getting penalized? I just dont like any double moral...

Snowy · Post by **Snowy** » Wed May 31, 2006 11:35 pm

Sorry Ed

I lost the plot won't happen again.

Ed · Post by Ed » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:13 am

To clarify the rules regarding starting from the back or from the pitlane:

2006 F1 Sporting Regulataions
Article 87 - a:

....
Should a driver use a replacement engine before the end of the qualifying practice session he will drop ten places on the starting grid at that Event each time a further engine is used.
....

Article 87 c:

Should a driver use a replacement engine after the qualifying practice session at either of the two Events, he will be required to start the relevant race from the back of the starting grid in accordance with Article 130.

Article 130 b:

b) If more than one driver fails to set a time during any one of the three periods of qualifying they will be arranged in the following order :
i) any driver who attempted to set a qualifying time by starting a flying lap ;
ii) any driver who failed to start a flying lap ;
iii) any driver who failed to leave the pits during the period.

and Article 130 c:

Any driver who incurs a penalty under Article 87(a), and as a result is placed behind the last car from the first period of qualifying, will take precedence over any driver who incurs a penalty under Article 87(c). Both of the above will take precedence over any driver whose qualifying times have been deleted for any reason.

Finally, Article 121:

If a competitor modifies any part on the car or makes changes to the set up of the suspension whilst the car is being held under parc ferm? conditions the relevant driver must start the race from the pit lane and follow the procedures laid out in Article 136.

and Article 136:

17 minutes before the start of the formation lap, a warning signal will be given indicating that the end of the pit lane will be closed in two minutes.
15 minutes before the start of the formation lap the end of the pit lane will be closed and a second warning signal will be given. Any car which is still in the pit lane can start from the end of the pit lane provided it got there under its own power. If more than one car is affected they must line up in the order in which they reached the end of the pit lane. These cars may then join the race once the whole field has passed the end of the pit lane for the first time after the start.

At the Monaco Grand Prix, Felipe Massa failed to set a time in the first Qualifying so he was classified last. Ferrari decided to change the engine in his car and since he didn't make the last 10 he was free to choose the fuel. Hence Article 87c.

Michael Schumacher's times were deleted due to the infringement and the team opted to change his engine so Article 87c applies. However, since Michael made the top 10, he couldn't change his fuel load unless he decides to start from the pitlane (Article 121) and that is what the team did.

This process was carried out by Ferrari and others this season.

Starting from the pitlane is much worse than starting from the back of the grid as a driver cannot make up places at the start but at Monaco and given the slow nature of the track, Michael was able to catch up with Massa and the other cars very quickly and take advantage of it. Something Ferrari were probably counting on when they decided to go for a pitlane start.

Hope this clarifies this issue.

Ed · Post by Ed » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:27 am

F1greyhound wrote: How many drivers have previously blocked others in qualifying without getting penalized? I just dont like any double moral...

In addition to Giancarlo Fisichella who was penalised at the Monaco Grand Prix for blocking, at the European Grand Prix, Jacques Villeneuve was penalised for blocking Giancarlo Fisichella.

Keep in mind that this is the first season in many years that we have cars fighting for grid spots in qualifying at the same time. For the past few years it was single lap, (almost) single car qualifying so the FIA are trying to ensure drivers do give way when they are on in or out laps to drivers who are on hot laps.
Some drivers will still get away with it, the system isn't perfect but the drivers will get the message and we will see fewer blocking incidents (at least that is what one would hope

)

GhoGho · Post by **GhoGho** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:02 am

coronado wrote:
JayVee wrote:
coronado wrote:I am 100% convinced he did it on purpose, not big deal, he cheated before...but what I really do not understand is WHY, if he is under a penalty, the FIA let him change his strategy, start from the pit lane and change the motor.... then it is not a penalty any more.... he should start from the back of the grid with the same gas and the same motor he had.
Why Fisi could not change his strategy when was moved to the 10th place?
I don't get it...please explain to me.
Thanks
That is a point. Perhaps they need to tighten the rules further. But thinking of it, teams do change strategy if they start from the back or the pit lane (not sure of the difference) and Ferrari saw that as the best approach. This one they played within the rules. It is OK!
IMHO, is different a penalty than a a tactical decission...if the team for whatever reason decide to change the motor or they have to change it after a BBQ, then as a penalty, you must go 10 places back on the grid and once you are further back than 10th, you decide your strategy, gas etc.
BUT, if you do something wrong and the FIA decide you have to be punished, then I do not think is fair to let you minimize that punishment changing your strategy and motor and everything... it does not sound logic to me

Coronado, you seem to be confusing the issue.

The penalty was not to start at the back of the grid.

The penalty handed down was to have the qualifying times deleted.

Therefore MS had the same time as FM = no time set.

Therefore the same set of rules apply for that car as for all of those who didnt make the top ten.

McLaren have done the same thing for Kimi, so nothing new there.

Quite simple really.

coronado · Post by **coronado** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:02 am

Thank you guys, everything is clear now...

GhoGho · Post by **GhoGho** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:58 am

coronado wrote:Thank you guys, everything is clear now...

Perfectly understandable, max and bernie made the rules to confuse us all

F1greyhound · Post by **F1greyhound** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:23 am

Yeah,

but the anti-Michael(or Ferrari) group gets more confused each time

))