Michael Schumacher, Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve

[Redhead]

RE30B#16,

Not for the first time, I have to ask you "Did you actually read my post"

I write "FA is a truly great driver" and your accuse me of implying that Alonso is a "monkey". How do you make that connection? It's so off the planet it's actually quite hard to respond to.

Your dismissal of Nigel Roebuck is astonishing, do you really expect me to sit here and think, "Gosh, RE30B#16 is right, and can shed more light on this issue than Nigel Roebuck can"

And as for your "history lesson" and advice to "open my eyes" and "pay attention", I can only suggest you take them and place them in a location devoid of sunlight.

[F1greyhound]

jacfanesse, you must be a hot lady........kisses from the whippet

Anyway Im entitled to question if e.g. KIMI had performed the same error as MICHAEL in Monaco, would he have had to start from the back or would he rather have got a 5 place penalty?

And if MICHAEL had been in JUANs place in Indy, Im not sure he would have got a 1 race penalty or something but I sure know the MS haters on here would have shouted it was a foul....

[jacfan]

jacfanesse, you must be a hot lady........kisses from the whippet

Anyway Im entitled to question if e.g. KIMI had performed the same error as MICHAEL in Monaco, would he have had to start from the back or would he rather have got a 5 place penalty?

Hmmm that is hard to know for sure but probably a five place penalty

And if MICHAEL had been in JUANs place in Indy, Im not sure he would have got a 1 race penalty or something but I sure know the MS haters on here would have shouted it was a foul....

I have not heard whether there is any penalty for Juan following Indy. I think he probably should have to at least explain what happened and given his statement on the day should be placed at the back of the grid for the next race at the very least.

I don't hate Michael. I don't know him so therefore am not in the position to make that judgement. However I find that a lot of his tactics over the years have been at the very least dubious. Although he has smashed the records of everyone and made them his own, I don't think he has made a legacy of being a decent driver. Which is unfortunate in light of his obvious talent. It would appear to me that Michael and Ferrari believe that there is one set of rules for them and one for everyone else.
This is what (I think) most people object to.

[JayVee]

this is tiring.....

Just like your comments.

Not as tiring as yours Jayvee. Maybe one day you'll wake up from your one-dimensional world where FA is angel and MS is evil and has only accumulated his record by having a lawyer hold a gun at his teammates head.

Redhead, so being two dimensional means that I have to accept a driver who is skilled but also plays dirty ? No thanks
You can be two or even multi dimensional and give support to your favourite driver despite his dirty tatics and live in that unfair world of yours. Your choice!

FA is a truly great driver, however you resort to petty forensic analysis of F1grehounds post, rather than giving credence to his point, which I think is very valid, that we have yet to see FA get results in a car that he shouldnt, win races that he shouldnt have. This is a quality that MS has demonstrated on many occasions, and provide some of my enduring memories of recent F1 years (in all its limitations). Im not saying that FA is not capable of this, but I have yet to see it.

First I don't like people skewing facts (intentionally or not). I pointed that out to F1greyhound. Forensic ? Well he was making a mockery of Montoya and Fisichella yet your driver only managed a few points more than those and that included 10 free points from Indy

As for your comparison, it amazes me that you are comparing your driver with Alonso (16 seasons compared to 5), to be fair (something you don't seem to regard highly when it comes to your driver's tactics), compare the two at their 5th season and see the result.

Alonso in his first season drove a Minardi.
Alonso won a race in his second season, was on Pole twice and finished 4 times on the podium. By comparison his teammate only got 1 podium that same year.
Sure he was and remains in a good car in 05 and 06 but his results against his teammate show how good he is. You have yet to see this of course.
That despite the fact that he doesn't get any preference from the team. He is leaving them at the end of the season, if anything that should be a negative thing.

You can't say that about your driver who along with Ferrari share this philosophy of having a single driver team giving your driver an unfair advantage over his teammate and the rest of the drivers (and this doesn't include any of his dirty tactics)

But please enjoy those enduring memories, I will enjoy mine, the likes of his first win in Hungary 2003 (and lapping your driver in the process), his drive from 20th in Italy 2003 to finish in the points, his drive from 13th in Australia 2005 to finish on the podium and in Japan 2005 from 16th to finish on the podium. Just some of his great performance from Alonso and his career has barely started.

What I also enjoy about Alonso is that he is a fair competitor. In his 5 seasons so far, he hasn't committed a single dirty trick on another driver and that is what racing should be about, win fairly on the track, not by pushing others off the track

MS's black marks are there for all to see, some (not all) of which are deserved, and will rightly taint his legacy forever, however for me the sum of the man is much greater than than that. Speaking of which I have alwyas beleived, and none other that Nigel Roebuck agrees with me on this, that MS's behaviour on track is a direct legacy of the standards set by Ayrton Senna, a tricky hypothesis, given that we are not supposed to speak ill of those who have passed on.

cheers,
CW

Doing wrong just because someone else may have isn't right. Yes his record will always be tainted forever and I do hope that the coming generation of drivers are more Alonso/Raikkonen like

[JayVee]

If you still need evidence of FA's ability, open your eyes and consider what has been going on for the past 2 years.

It is amazing isn't it RE30B#16

He just happened to be in the right car maybe
Fisichella is also in the right car

[Redhead]

it amazes me that you are comparing your driver with Alonso (16 seasons compared to 5)

Jayvee, I will be facinated to know how, within a single sentence you can;

(a) be "amazed" that I am comparing MS with FA,
(b) in the very next phrase make a comparison between them yourself!

Then go and look at the rest of your post and it is riddled with comparisons. Your selectivity is impressive.

You and RE30B#16 have a couple of things in common, you both have favourite words, yours is "dirty", his is "rubbish", and you both read things into my post that aren't there. I would have thought describing FA as a "truly great driver" was pretty unambiguous, yet you both make smug comments implying I said the only reason he is WDC is because of the car, I don't believe that and I never said it, and I am sure when FA has done 16 seaons he will have one of the best records around.

You judge me as not valuing fairness, and you are entitled to your opnion. I do value fairness, I also value, respect, balance, non-judgement, compassion, perserverance, humility, forgiveness to name a few.

Hang on to fairness, Jayvee, and pump it all you like. What I would like to see in this forum is in depth discussion of a sport I love, to hear opinions that enlighten me, give me insight into some of the mysteries.

Gotta go cook dinner,
cheers,
CW

[RE30B#16]

Your dismissal of Nigel Roebuck is astonishing, do you really expect me to sit here and think, "Gosh, RE30B#16 is right, and can shed more light on this issue than Nigel Roebuck can"

Since I don't know you personally, for all you know I just might be Nigel Roebuck!

And as for your "history lesson" and advice to "open my eyes" and "pay attention", I can only suggest you take them and place them in a location devoid of sunlight.

Are you available this week?

[RE30B#16]

we have yet to see FA get results in a car that he shouldnt, win races that he shouldnt have. This is a quality that MS has demonstrated on many occasions, and provide some of my enduring memories of recent F1 years (in all its limitations). Im not saying that FA is not capable of this, but I have yet to see it.

Re-reading your post, you said this:

Fernando Alonso has taken to Formula 1 almost the way Tiger Woods took to professional golf. He has won from behind. He has led from pole. He has made more competitive passes on Michael Schumacher on track than any else in recent years. Imola or Suzuka 2005 should provide enough enduring memories of his abilities for you. He has been the only driver since Damon Hill in Suzuka 1996 to beat Schumacher at the whole "pit stop passing" thing. Yes, you kind of say Alonso is a very good driver, but what else are you looking for before you give him total credit? Very good drivers don't win championships. Excellent ones do.

David Coulthard, Gerhard Berger, Ricardo Patrese, Rubens Barrichello, and Eddie Irvine are all very good drivers who drove some of the very best cars of the past 15 years, but none of them won even one championship.

I don't know any other way to interpret what you write, Redhead. If you can offer a different analysis please do.

[Redhead]

Yes, you kind of say Alonso is a very good driver, but what else are you looking for before you give him total credit? Very good drivers don't win championships. Excellent ones do.

RE30B#16, I am starting to wonder if you can actually read , I said FA is a "truly great" driver, (how many effing times do I have to repeat myself) and rank no other driver higher than that, yet you are saying I "kind of say Alonso is a very good driver", two such completely different descriptions that once again I am left wondering which planet you are on. Your selectivity and spin is surpassed only by Jayvee.

And if you are Nigel Roebuck, I will happily let you know when I am available.

kisses,
CW

[jacfan]

You judge me as not valuing fairness, and you are entitled to your opnion. I do value fairness, I also value, respect, balance, non-judgement, compassion, perserverance, humility, forgiveness to name a few.

[Julian Mayo]

I think a couple of rereads of early posts might be in order guys. There seems to be a common thread of misunderstanding.

When you have done that, please send a carrier pigeon to let me know if it is safe to come out of the trenches

[jacfan]

I think a couple of rereads of early posts might be in order guys. There seems to be a common thread of misunderstanding.

When you have done that, please send a carrier pigeon to let me know if it is safe to come out of the trenches

Hey chill Julian. I will protect you. OOOOOOOPPPPS too much I am right behind you and I wlll loik attefer youuu

Duh I have to keep to the subject... ummm I think JV is and always will be the best

[Julian Mayo]

I think a couple of rereads of early posts might be in order guys. There seems to be a common thread of misunderstanding.

When you have done that, please send a carrier pigeon to let me know if it is safe to come out of the trenches

Hey chill Julian. I will protect you. OOOOOOOPPPPS too much I am right behind you and I wlll loik attefer youuu

Duh I have to keep to the subject... ummm I think JV is and always will be the best

Now that has gotta hurt this morning

[JayVee]

Ok Redhead, not sure what you are attempting here but I will take it at face value.

You selected half the sentence of what I say yet you call me selective.

In case you missed the second half of my sentence, here is what I said again:

As for your comparison, it amazes me that you are comparing your driver with Alonso (16 seasons compared to 5),
to be fair (something you don't seem to regard highly when it comes to your driver's tactics), compare the two at their 5th season and see the result.

I clearly said compare the two at the point where Alonso is now but you chose to ignore that!

Then I went on highlighting some of the impressive acheivements of Alonso in his career, some of those results that Alonso managed that he shouldn't.
I did highlight a big difference between Alonso and your driver and that is Alonso doesn't resort to dirty tricks on track nor does he demand preference.

To me what Alonso has been able to demonstrate in his first 5 seasons outclass what your driver did in his first 5 seasons and that is before applying the dirty tactics of your driver (what you would like to describe as black marks). To me Alonso is way ahead at this stage.

It is funny that you describe Alonso as a truly great driver yet you fail to recognise that he acheived results that his car wasn't capable of. Oh and before you argue, this is what you said :

We have yet to see FA get results in a car that he shouldnt, win races that he shouldnt have. This is a quality that MS has demonstrated on many occasions

Hang on, then in another post you say:

Yet you both make smug comments implying I said the only reason he is WDC is because of the car, I don't believe that and I never said it

First you are implying that I said that and then you deny saying what you think was implied .... how does that work huh ???

But if one compares these two statements:

We have yet to see FA get results in a car that he shouldnt, win races that he shouldnt have.

and

The only reason he is WDC is because of the car

mmmm..... if he has gotten results because of the car then he is WDC because of the car

But really Redhead, if Alonso is a truly great driver by your standards, yet your think he hasn't won in a car that shouldn't, doesn't that mean that your claim that he is truly great is a bit premature ? Or is there something even better than truly great in your standard ?

As to me judging you as not valuing fairness, let me again repeat what I said:

to be fair (something you don't seem to regard highly when it comes to your driver's tactics)

I said that you don't seem to highly regard fairness when it comes to your driver's tactics. I don't know you so I don't judge you but you said:

however for me the sum of the man is much greater than that

so you are giving lesser regard to fairness when it comes to your driver, that is all what I can say, as to you and whether you value fairness or not, again I cannot judge that but I am glad that you say that you do value fairness, respect, balance, non-judgement, compassion, perserverance, humility and forgiveness. I hope everyone does.

On selectivness, in all my time on this forum and others, I have always replied and addressed everything that was ever asked of me. I never select what I like and reply to it. That is something I wish the rest can do

When someone posts something that looks like a fact but is WRONG (and some do tend to try and slip in something misleading every once in a while), I will point that out. That is not being selective.

Redhead, please read my posts more carefully next time.

Hope you had a good dinner

[RE30B#16]

Yes, you kind of say Alonso is a very good driver, but what else are you looking for before you give him total credit? Very good drivers don't win championships. Excellent ones do.

RE30B#16, I am starting to wonder if you can actually read , I said FA is a "truly great" driver, (how many effing times do I have to repeat myself) and rank no other driver higher than that, yet you are saying I "kind of say Alonso is a very good driver", two such completely different descriptions that once again I am left wondering which planet you are on. Your selectivity and spin is surpassed only by Jayvee.

And if you are Nigel Roebuck, I will happily let you know when I am available.

kisses,
CW

The rest of us are on planet Earth, and I can actually read, Meathead, er Redhead! Oh, incidently, JayVee and I challenged your remarks cleanly and fairly without the need for all of the insults. The fact that you could not reply in kind suggests that your position is weak. Further, it is you who seems to have difficulty reading other people's posts. Actually, I don't really believe that since, as someone else pointed out, you are extremely selective about what you respond to with regards to posts you don't like. Clearly you do not read what you've written or else you have little understanding of the subtle implications of some of your remarks. Catch a clue, babe!