The Honda RA107

[gkaytaz]

Faster cannot be based on a kart record in some place Julian. He'll probably be hopeless on another kart track in yet some other place (say in Colombia ) for all we know.

And keep in mind Frentzen beat Schumacher in some other forumla they both raced in but this is F1.

Yes Webber has put in some stunning qualifying laps just like Trulli has.

Like Trulli he needs results to convince the majority (outside Australia ) that he is really fast over a race distance.

Of course IMHO

Your humble opinion seems to be spot on though Look at Trulli's numbers:
GP starts: 164
Retirements: 61 (this number gradually dropped throughout his switching to Renault and then to Toyota)
Poles: 3
Wins: 1 (2004 Monaco; Schumi, Alonso, Kimi were all out)
Podiums: 7
Fastest laps: 0
Highest WDC finish: 6th (46 pts, 2004)
No of pts scored: 175 (on average 1 pt per GP started)

He is one of the better qualifiers although he's not lightning fast as some people tend to think. Thanks to him F1 contributed a new term to the english language: Trulli train! He definitely needs to be more aggressive during the race.

Now to Webber:
GP starts: 85
Retirements: 35 (contrary to Trulli his numbers are on the rise )
Poles: 0
Wins: 0
Podiums: 1 (2005 Monaco, that magic-looking Williams 2-3 finish)
Fastest laps: 0
Highest WDC finish: 10th (36 pts, 2005)
No of pts scored: 69 (less than a pt per race started)

Yet his quali laps are far more promising. I am not saying Webber is slow. He definitely has the potential to be fast. For some strange reason though he fails to project that potential on to the racetrack.

[gkaytaz]

Webber is faster than DC. Apart from the races where one of the two failed to see the finish line (not many, only 6, but enough for statistics) DC managed to beat MW once MW was on average 3 spots higher.

After all said and done I think MW will beat DC hands down but only if he survives the curse of the first corner.

That's for 2006, mind you.

[JayVee]

Faster cannot be based on a kart record in some place Julian.

Of course IMHO

Why not?

Why so ? Very simple, we are talking F1 not karting I thought

There is probably a kid in karting that will beat all the F1 drivers so ..... it means zilch apart from the kudos.

And I know Melbourne isn't his home track that is why I suggested Colombia and not Bogota

[JayVee]

Well I can't really imagine McLaren, Renault or Ferrari dropping outside the top 3 no matter what Honda does. Well OK maybe Ferrari without all those people and with Raikkonen (breaker) and Massa (crasher) would drop to 4th so at best Honda would finish 3rd.

IMHO remember so don't me

Even if Kimi manages to break cars, and Massa crashes (he's had 2 retirements in 06, both accidents) I still don't believe that Honda can score more points than Ferrari. Honda will have their own problems for one. Besides according to the F1 magazine, during last season on average Kimi was 0.2 s faster than Massa, 0.7 s faster than Button and 0.9 s faster than Barrichello. And that was in a car he managed to break a number of times...

Oh I see but you really think it is even accurate to make comparisons between drivers in different cars ? And how did they come up with these numbers. (I stopped reading F1 Racing in protest at their lack of professionalism and bias about a year ago ... I still take a sneak peak at newsagents sometimes though )

BTW: If I have hinted that Raikkonen is not fast, that isn't something I meant. He is one of the fastest guys out there.

BTW2: I was saying at best gkaytaz, I don't think it will happen but IMHO that is the only way they will get 3rd

[JayVee]

Webber is faster than DC. Apart from the races where one of the two failed to see the finish line (not many, only 6, but enough for statistics) DC managed to beat MW once MW was on average 3 spots higher.

After all said and done I think MW will beat DC hands down but only if he survives the curse of the first corner.

That's for 2006, mind you.

Yes but didn't you notice that Coulthard finished with double the points. I thought this should be mentioned for the sake of accurate comparison.

Consistency is the key

[JayVee]

Of course IMHO

Your humble opinion seems to be spot on though

Thanks

My HO is nearly always right ....

Interesting statistics

But I would credit him fully with the Monaco win. I think he was leading when all those retired. Alonso was catching him but I don't think he would have passed him. Sadly Trulli went downhill from there, he had a bit of a revival at Toyota but then went downhill again. Something isn't right in his head I said!!

[gkaytaz]

Oh I see but you really think it is even accurate to make comparisons between drivers in different cars ? And how did they come up with these numbers. (I stopped reading F1 Racing in protest at their lack of professionalism and bias about a year ago ... I still take a sneak peak at newsagents sometimes though )

They have some sort of formula comparing the best time to the fastest lap time. I am not saying it is a healthy way of comparison but since there is no way to compare them racing in the same car (perhaps ever) those numbers will have to do. What I want to point out is Kimi, even with all the retirements, still managed to beat both Honda drivers. Ferraris are more reliable and I don't see a reason for that to change. And as far as the speed is concerned Ferrari and McLaren are well-matched. Both cars can outpace a Honda.

BTW: If I have hinted that Raikkonen is not fast, that isn't something I meant. He is one of the fastest guys out there.

No that was not what I thought. I understood the point you made very well

BTW2: I was saying at best gkaytaz, I don't think it will happen but IMHO that is the only way they will get 3rd

And I will not sue you if it does happen. Relax... Just exchanging thoughts here

[gkaytaz]

Webber is faster than DC. Apart from the races where one of the two failed to see the finish line (not many, only 6, but enough for statistics) DC managed to beat MW once MW was on average 3 spots higher.

After all said and done I think MW will beat DC hands down but only if he survives the curse of the first corner.

That's for 2006, mind you.

Yes but didn't you notice that Coulthard finished with double the points. I thought this should be mentioned for the sake of accurate comparison.

Consistency is the key

True. Keep in mind though Webbo was in a Williams. While DC's number of points is double, MW's number of retirements is double as well

[gkaytaz]

Something isn't right in his head I said!!

Agree. His daring attack in Monaco still amazes me

[JayVee]

They have some sort of formula comparing the best time to the fastest lap time. I am not saying it is a healthy way of comparison but since there is no way to compare them racing in the same car (perhaps ever) those numbers will have to do. What I want to point out is Kimi, even with all the retirements, still managed to beat both Honda drivers. Ferraris are more reliable and I don't see a reason for that to change. And as far as the speed is concerned Ferrari and McLaren are well-matched. Both cars can outpace a Honda.

Without Ross Brawn to make perfect calls and Schuey to implement, I wonder how many stuffed up strategies they will have.
It is not just pure pace. Doesn't Honda keep breaking records in testing but in race trim they falter. Towards the end of last year they started to get it right.

BTW2: I was saying at best gkaytaz, I don't think it will happen but IMHO that is the only way they will get 3rd

And I will not sue you if it does happen. Relax... Just exchanging thoughts here

Oh thank you, really thank you I was really worried I'll get sued

[JayVee]

That's for 2006, mind you.

Yes but didn't you notice that Coulthard finished with double the points. I thought this should be mentioned for the sake of accurate comparison.

Consistency is the key

True. Keep in mind though Webbo was in a Williams. While DC's number of points is double, MW's number of retirements is double as well

Look at those retirements, how many are mechanical and how many are accidents/spins ....

Again I am just stating those stats for accuracy of the comparison

[gkaytaz]

Look at those retirements, how many are mechanical and how many are accidents/spins ....

Again I am just stating those stats for accuracy of the comparison

DC had 5 retirements, 1 due to accident.
MW had 11 retirements, 5 due to accident.

What I am saying is Webber had 6 races where he could have finished in the points against DC's 4 races. And since Webber has finished higher than DC when both drivers managed to finish, I believe that Webber would have had 6 opportunities to score additional 7 points.

Anyway it's a moot point since we'll soon see them racing side-by-side in the same vehicles.

[gkaytaz]

Oh thank you, really thank you I was really worried I'll get sued

Glad that your heart is trouble-free now

[jacfan]

Faster cannot be based on a kart record in some place Julian.

Of course IMHO

Why not?

Funny this looks to me IMHO like a direct reply to JayVee's post?????

I will continue to post in all areas of the Forums, as requested.
If you feel that any part of any post is directed at you, or any part of of one of your posts, you will be mistaken.
If you feel that anything I post is in response to your posts, you will be in error.
If you expect to elicit a response from me, you will be wrong.
Should, for example, my post appear immediately below yours, that will be happenstance, and in no way to be taken in conjunction with your post.

I don't believe that I can make it clearer than that.

very strange indeed.

[gkaytaz]

Faster cannot be based on a kart record in some place Julian.

Of course IMHO

Why not?

Funny this looks to me IMHO like a direct reply to JayVee's post?????

I will continue to post in all areas of the Forums, as requested.
If you feel that any part of any post is directed at you, or any part of of one of your posts, you will be mistaken.
If you feel that anything I post is in response to your posts, you will be in error.
If you expect to elicit a response from me, you will be wrong.
Should, for example, my post appear immediately below yours, that will be happenstance, and in no way to be taken in conjunction with your post.

I don't believe that I can make it clearer than that.

very strange indeed.

Apparently you are mistaken then Or in error... Or wrong. I would ask Julian for an explanation but according to those rules his reply won't be in answer to my question so that rules that out Guess you have no chance but wonder about that post for some time jacfan.