Q3 query

davko · Post by **davko** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:53 am

I'm still a bit confused about fuel regulations as they apply to the third qualifying round. After a car's race fuel has been declared, is it required to replenish the entire amount before the race, or does it have the option of adding back any amount thereof?

Also, what happens when a car fails to go the required 110% of its fastest lap (i.e. Alonso, before the French GP). How is it penalized?

Ed · Post by Ed » Sat Jul 07, 2007 9:06 am

Welcome to the forums davko,

The Sporting Regulations state that a car may have fuel replaced before the race so it is optional but why would a team not replace the fuel used ?

Regarding the 110%, any lap done under the 110% of the fastest lap doesn't count toward fuel replenishment.
(In Alonso's case though, he didn't set a lap time so I believe he got back that fuel - can't confirm though!)

Article 29.1:

Fuel may not be added to nor removed from any car eligible to take part in Q3 during that period.
Fuel used during Q3 may be replaced immediately after the cars are released from parc fermé on the day of the race, this will be carried out in grid order.
Every car which was eligible to take part in Q3, with the exception of those unable to take part, must comply with the above. Any Competitor whose car is eligible but unable to take part in Q3 must, prior to the start of Q3, inform the FIA in writing what quantity of fuel they wish to add to the car when it is released from parc fermé on the day of the race.

jacfan · Post by **jacfan** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 1:33 pm

Welcome to the boards Davko.

davko · Post by **davko** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:44 pm

Thanks for your welcoming words and for enlightening me on some of the finer points of qualifying. I'm going to enjoy this forum, and will be sure to look for the trivia quizzes.

mlittle · Post by **mlittle** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:17 pm

Welcome to the forums, davko. There's lots of great areas to visit here, from Formula 1, the V8 Supercars, NA motorsports, MotoGP, and so forth. Check out the Lounge area as well when you get the chance. If there's any questions, don't hesitate to ask.

jacfan · Post by **jacfan** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 7:51 pm

davko wrote:Thanks for your welcoming words and for enlightening me on some of the finer points of qualifying. I'm going to enjoy this forum, and will be sure to look for the trivia quizzes.

Fantastic.

davko · Post by **davko** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:03 am

What do you know. It seems we've been caught flat-footed by a regulations change that has done away with the "107% rule" (not 110%, as I mistakenly wrote earlier). In fact, until this week, most teams and drivers seemed unaware of it too! They may now complete laps as slow as they wish in Q3 and receive full fuel credit for them.

Ed · Post by Ed » Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:24 am

Are you sure about this davko ? Or is this a mixup with the old 107% qualifying rule that was in place a few years ago ? That was to qualify, a driver must set a time that is within 107% of the Pole setter's time.

davko · Post by **davko** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:44 am

It was a major subject of discussion during this morning's Speed Channel broadcast here in the U.S. There were interviews with drivers and team members who had been ignorant of the change until this week (Raikkonen and his crew being the exception), and the commentators themselves admitted to having been in the dark about it. Astonishing that such information could fly under the radar, isn't it?

Southernman · Post by **Southernman** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:23 am

Welcome to the forums davko.

What ED is said is the correct rules.

It sounds like a whined up.

gkaytaz · Post by **gkaytaz** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:06 am

Hello davko. Nice to see new faces here. Welcome.

davko · Post by **davko** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:53 am

Respectfully, Southernman, what Ed wrote is not wrong, just out of date. I stand by my post that the "107% rule" has been dropped, albeit rather quietly. Eventually, everyone will get wind of this... or can just look it up.

Ed · Post by Ed » Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:44 am

Davko, it would be great if you can point us to the source of this information. What I am sure about is the rule is (or perhaps was) 110 percent and not 107 percent.

What I also do know is that when a new rule is introduced or a old rule scrapped, the FIA informs all the teams. It is not as if the teams have to go looking for changes to the rules. The public may not know but the teams would.

Finally if all the laps are indeed given back, why do all the drivers still drive back to the pits at turtle pace after their final flyer ? They want to save fuel as they don't get that lap back.

davko · Post by **davko** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:18 am

Believe me guys, I was surprised by all this as you are. Here's a reply given Saturday by a respected TV commentator during an on-line chat. In answer to my question about how we all got blind-sided by the rule change, he wrote:

It's actually called the 107% rule (Jenson Button didn't even know what the number was) and I have no excuse. I'm in good company, since few in the pit lane knew about the change, and I didn't see or hear any of my fellow journalists offering it as an explanation for Kimi's French success. I guess we just can't assume any longer that just because a rule isn't publicly changed, that doesn't mean it's still in effect. Our bad.

He went on to say that for whatever reason, the FIA made this change without much fanfare; it didn't post the information on its website, as it usually does.

More info about the rule change is available on SpeedTV.com.

As for saving fuel after posting a fast lap, that's no longer necessary. Last week, Kimi Raikkonen (who DID know about the rule change) won, in part, by getting full fuel credit for 2 slow laps he did toward the end of Q3, thus getting in more race laps than Massa in his first stint.

Ed · Post by Ed » Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:00 am

Speedtv.com is a large site davko

A direct link to this article would be appreciated.

A couple of corrections though so we don't get further confused, last week Raikkonen started 3rd, he didn't win Pole.
Also a driver cannot do more than an in-lap (1 single lap) after the chequered flag comes down.

For the whole of this season, all (or most) the cars in Q3 drive back to the pits at a very slow pace. If this rule is abolished, they would all get their full credit back, whether they knew about the rule or not.

I have a feeling this issue has to do with the ability for a driver and his team to do a bit of thinking. See if a driver who just finished his flying lap with just a few seconds remaining, he would still slow down and pit, yet as he crossed the line before the chequered flag, he can still do a slower lap (but within 110 percent) and then his very slow in-lap. He would gain a bit in fuel that way. In today's qualifying, both Alonso and Massa did just that, even though they completed their second flyer with seconds remaining on the clock they did a slowish lap and then the ultra slow lap. (Hamilton who set his pole time after Alonso's flyer was in parc ferme long before Alonso arrived).
Taking Hamilton's pole time of 1:19.997, a 110 percent lap would need to be faster than 1:27.997. That would be slow and give them a small fuel advatange.