Read this
http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2008/10/ ... ine-plans/
and have your say.
What an amazing new and original idea! Why didn't someone think of that before?
Oh wait, now that I think of it, wasn't it called Formula Vee, no wait Formula Ford, no, it was Formula Ford 2000! No maybe it was Formula BMW or Formula Renault, or Formula Nisan, or Formula 3, or Formula Atlantic A1 GP or was it GP2?
My head hurts..................
Dramatic New Engine Plans
Moderators: cmlean, Ed, The Qualiflyer, The Heretic
Dramatic New Engine Plans
I'm in shape
Round is a shape...........
Round is a shape...........
-
mlittle
- Forum Hall of Fame
- Posts: 11205
- Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:51 pm
- Location: At the F1 Idiots Bar.............where else?
- Contact:
Re: Dramatic New Engine Plans
GhoGho wrote:Read this
http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2008/10/ ... ine-plans/
and have your say.
What an amazing new and original idea! Why didn't someone think of that before?
Oh wait, now that I think of it, wasn't it called Formula Vee, no wait Formula Ford, no, it was Formula Ford 2000! No maybe it was Formula BMW or Formula Renault, or Formula Nisan, or Formula 3, or Formula Atlantic A1 GP or was it GP2?
My head hurts..................
Why doesn't Bernie E. and Co. just come out and say, "let's have spec engines, spec chassis, etc..." . Isn't Formula 1 supposed to be one of the last vestiges of the "run what ya' brung" philosophy of motorsports?
The Sci-Fi Station Come by and visit when you get the chance. 
The Wayward Tarheel I'm even in the blogosphere....
The Wayward Tarheel I'm even in the blogosphere....
-
mlittle
- Forum Hall of Fame
- Posts: 11205
- Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:51 pm
- Location: At the F1 Idiots Bar.............where else?
- Contact:
...and to think, it won't be until 2011 that we'll get to see new chassis' and new engines in the IndyCar Series.....at least they're bringing back turbos.....GhoGho wrote:Thats what i have always believed since way back in 1971 or 2 when I went to watch a GP for the first time!!!
Now this.......... maybe they can get chassis from dallara and engines from honda......and run together with the IRL guys......
The Sci-Fi Station Come by and visit when you get the chance.
The Wayward Tarheel I'm even in the blogosphere....
The Wayward Tarheel I'm even in the blogosphere....
I am not sure how different this is from the current status !
Currently all the engines are limited to 19000 RPM, there are many restrictions on engine weight, dimesions and centre of gravity not to mention all the restrictions on materials that can be used.
There is very little room for what designers can do.
What is suggested by Bernie won't save much from what is now. His suggestion of a "common design" but each manufacturer builds there own isn't really an option. Why duplicate all the engine manufacturing facilities and the staff if the design is the same ? It sounds like a very cost inefficient way. If they have to go with a standard design then one manufacturer can do them, just like the ECU and the tyres.
If variations are allowed then what is the difference to now ?
In relative terms, not much money is being spent on the engine side, it is the wind tunnels and the CFD research that is using up a lot of money.
Isn't the same Ferrari engine used in the Toro Rosso and the Force India ? The jump Toro Rosso made wasn't due to the engine.
Same applies to Renault and Red Bull. Earlier this season Red Bull was at times quicker, now Renault is clearly quicker.
I think the signficant cost cuts need to come from other areas.
Currently all the engines are limited to 19000 RPM, there are many restrictions on engine weight, dimesions and centre of gravity not to mention all the restrictions on materials that can be used.
There is very little room for what designers can do.
What is suggested by Bernie won't save much from what is now. His suggestion of a "common design" but each manufacturer builds there own isn't really an option. Why duplicate all the engine manufacturing facilities and the staff if the design is the same ? It sounds like a very cost inefficient way. If they have to go with a standard design then one manufacturer can do them, just like the ECU and the tyres.
If variations are allowed then what is the difference to now ?
In relative terms, not much money is being spent on the engine side, it is the wind tunnels and the CFD research that is using up a lot of money.
Isn't the same Ferrari engine used in the Toro Rosso and the Force India ? The jump Toro Rosso made wasn't due to the engine.
Same applies to Renault and Red Bull. Earlier this season Red Bull was at times quicker, now Renault is clearly quicker.
I think the signficant cost cuts need to come from other areas.
It appears that Bernie and Co want one engine transmission supplier for everyone, and has called for Tenders for Standard F1 engines.
If this is the case how will the manufacturers deal with this?
Does Bernie believe Ferrari BMW Mercedes Renault or Toyota will still want to race if they cant design and develop their own engines?
I cant see the manufactures sticking around if they are not developing their own engines, and without the manufacturers the sport/business may as well close its doors and we will all just watch GP2....or not.
If this is the case how will the manufacturers deal with this?
Does Bernie believe Ferrari BMW Mercedes Renault or Toyota will still want to race if they cant design and develop their own engines?
I cant see the manufactures sticking around if they are not developing their own engines, and without the manufacturers the sport/business may as well close its doors and we will all just watch GP2....or not.
I'm in shape
Round is a shape...........
Round is a shape...........
Indeed GhoGho, the FIA has released the following statement earlier today:
The FIA will today open the tender process for the appointment of a third party supplier of engines and transmission systems to be used by competitors in the 2010, 2011 and 2012 FIA Formula One World Championship.
The tender summary and requirements will be published on the FIA website shortly
It has been reported though that a standard design will be specified and the manufacturers can chose to build their own however the 3rd party will check if these engines are built to specfication!! (Story)
I think a number of manufacturers won't be happy about this.
The FIA will today open the tender process for the appointment of a third party supplier of engines and transmission systems to be used by competitors in the 2010, 2011 and 2012 FIA Formula One World Championship.
The tender summary and requirements will be published on the FIA website shortly
It has been reported though that a standard design will be specified and the manufacturers can chose to build their own however the 3rd party will check if these engines are built to specfication!! (Story)
I think a number of manufacturers won't be happy about this.
-
mlittle
- Forum Hall of Fame
- Posts: 11205
- Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:51 pm
- Location: At the F1 Idiots Bar.............where else?
- Contact:
Ed wrote:Indeed GhoGho, the FIA has released the following statement earlier today:
The FIA will today open the tender process for the appointment of a third party supplier of engines and transmission systems to be used by competitors in the 2010, 2011 and 2012 FIA Formula One World Championship.
The tender summary and requirements will be published on the FIA website shortly
It has been reported though that a standard design will be specified and the manufacturers can chose to build their own however the 3rd party will check if these engines are built to specfication!! (Story)
I think a number of manufacturers won't be happy about this.
I think I said this in an earlier post within this thread, but if they're going to go the route being discussed above, they might as well just that F1 will be a "spec-engine" series and be done with it.........
The Sci-Fi Station Come by and visit when you get the chance.
The Wayward Tarheel I'm even in the blogosphere....
The Wayward Tarheel I'm even in the blogosphere....
Looks like this crisis has been averted at least for the time being!
The FIA and FOTA in Geneva and agreed on a number of cost cutting measures.
Exact details of the agreement were not released however it is beleived that the idea of a single engine has been dropped at least for the time being.
Some of the cost cutting ideas include:
The extension of the one-engine per two weekends rule to three races in 2009.
Customer engine packages to be made available by manufacturers to independent teams for no more than 10m euros per season.
Expanding testing restrictions
Nothing official so far has been announced.
The FIA and FOTA in Geneva and agreed on a number of cost cutting measures.
Exact details of the agreement were not released however it is beleived that the idea of a single engine has been dropped at least for the time being.
Some of the cost cutting ideas include:
The extension of the one-engine per two weekends rule to three races in 2009.
Customer engine packages to be made available by manufacturers to independent teams for no more than 10m euros per season.
Expanding testing restrictions
Nothing official so far has been announced.
I don't quite see how making engines last 3 races will reduce costs. I recall reading somewhere that McLarrens engine department produced the same number of engines after the freeze as they did before the engine freeze.
This was apparently done to ensure reliability of the units for 2 race weekends.
Now they will have to test even more engines for longer periods, and develop better parts "in the name of reliability", and somehow save money at the same time.
In the larger teams resources (funds) from the engine programs have been diverted to other areas so no real cost saving has been achieved.
Well at least we will still have racing with all the manufacturers
This was apparently done to ensure reliability of the units for 2 race weekends.
Now they will have to test even more engines for longer periods, and develop better parts "in the name of reliability", and somehow save money at the same time.
In the larger teams resources (funds) from the engine programs have been diverted to other areas so no real cost saving has been achieved.
Well at least we will still have racing with all the manufacturers
I'm in shape
Round is a shape...........
Round is a shape...........
It looks like the FIA are not giving up on the idea of a single engine. They are proceeding with a tender they put out for the provision of standard engines.
A statement released by the FIA read:
Engines and Power Transmission Systems
On 17 October 2008 the FIA published an invitation to tender for a contract to supply engine and power transmission systems for use in the FIA Formula One World Championship.
The FIA has received a number of questions from interested parties regarding that Invitation to Tender. In accordance with the FIA’s Tendering procedures, the replies are set out in the relevant section of the FIA website.
The Tender schedule for transmission-only bids has also been updated. Bids for engines and transmissions in combination and bids for the supply of engines alone must be submitted by 7 November 2008. A minimum of three further weeks will be given to those considering transmission-only bids.
All prospective applicants are invited to take note.
A statement released by the FIA read:
Engines and Power Transmission Systems
On 17 October 2008 the FIA published an invitation to tender for a contract to supply engine and power transmission systems for use in the FIA Formula One World Championship.
The FIA has received a number of questions from interested parties regarding that Invitation to Tender. In accordance with the FIA’s Tendering procedures, the replies are set out in the relevant section of the FIA website.
The Tender schedule for transmission-only bids has also been updated. Bids for engines and transmissions in combination and bids for the supply of engines alone must be submitted by 7 November 2008. A minimum of three further weeks will be given to those considering transmission-only bids.
All prospective applicants are invited to take note.
Ferrari reacted angrily to the FIA's action and joined Toyota in publicly threatening to leave Formula 1 if the FIA carry out their plans.
A statement by the Ferrari board read:
The Board of Directors of Ferrari SpA met today under the chairmanship of Luca di Montezemolo, to examine the third quarter results.
Ferrari recorded € 450 million in revenues (up 22.3% year-over-year), and a trading profit of € 79 million (17.6% of revenues), up 41.1% from the € 56 million figure (15.2% of revenues) for Q3 2007.
The Board of Directors also examined the proposed changes to the Formula 1 regulations, in the light of the current global economic crisis.
Whilst reiterating its wholehearted commitment to a substantial and needed reduction in costs in Formula 1, starting with propulsion, the Ferrari Board of Directors expressed strong concerns regarding plans to standardise engines as it felt that such a move would detract from the entire raison of a sport with which Ferrari has been involved continuously since 1950, a raison d’etre based principally on competition and technological development.
The Board of Directors expressed the opinion that should these key elements be diminished, it would have to re-evaluate, with its partners the viability of continuing its presence in the sport ... More
Earlier Toyota gave an indication that they could leave F1 and move to the Le Mans series ... More
A statement by the Ferrari board read:
The Board of Directors of Ferrari SpA met today under the chairmanship of Luca di Montezemolo, to examine the third quarter results.
Ferrari recorded € 450 million in revenues (up 22.3% year-over-year), and a trading profit of € 79 million (17.6% of revenues), up 41.1% from the € 56 million figure (15.2% of revenues) for Q3 2007.
The Board of Directors also examined the proposed changes to the Formula 1 regulations, in the light of the current global economic crisis.
Whilst reiterating its wholehearted commitment to a substantial and needed reduction in costs in Formula 1, starting with propulsion, the Ferrari Board of Directors expressed strong concerns regarding plans to standardise engines as it felt that such a move would detract from the entire raison of a sport with which Ferrari has been involved continuously since 1950, a raison d’etre based principally on competition and technological development.
The Board of Directors expressed the opinion that should these key elements be diminished, it would have to re-evaluate, with its partners the viability of continuing its presence in the sport ... More
Earlier Toyota gave an indication that they could leave F1 and move to the Le Mans series ... More
The FIA responded by stating that Ferrari were misinformed and the single engine is just one of three options that has to be adopted in order to cut costs. The statement by the FIA read:
The FIA has noted the press statement issued by the Ferrari Board of Directors.
It seems the Ferrari Board were misinformed. The FIA has offered the teams three options, one of which is the so-called standard engine, and another that the manufacturers should jointly guarantee to supply power trains to the independent teams for less than €5m per season.
The FIA is delighted by Ferrari's financial success and hopes this will be maintained. However a number of teams find themselves facing costs which greatly exceed income. This is not sustainable.
It is now for the manufacturers to agree one of the three FIA options or themselves produce concrete proposals to reduce costs to a sustainable level.
If neither happens, the FIA will take whatever measures prove necessary to preserve a credible world championship for both drivers and constructors.
The FIA has noted the press statement issued by the Ferrari Board of Directors.
It seems the Ferrari Board were misinformed. The FIA has offered the teams three options, one of which is the so-called standard engine, and another that the manufacturers should jointly guarantee to supply power trains to the independent teams for less than €5m per season.
The FIA is delighted by Ferrari's financial success and hopes this will be maintained. However a number of teams find themselves facing costs which greatly exceed income. This is not sustainable.
It is now for the manufacturers to agree one of the three FIA options or themselves produce concrete proposals to reduce costs to a sustainable level.
If neither happens, the FIA will take whatever measures prove necessary to preserve a credible world championship for both drivers and constructors.